Greivances with "The List"

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I sense an "SE doesn't care" or "SE doesn't do enough" argument forthcoming...

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I sense an "SE doesn't care" or "SE doesn't do enough" argument forthcoming...

Which is irrelevant.

Woo preemptive argument.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I sense an "SE doesn't care" or "SE doesn't do enough" argument forthcoming...

I'm pretty sure that I read an update on the playonline site, that says they suspended 500? accounts or somesuch for RMT and took millions of gil out of rotation.

Not that I think you are wrong, I agree with you, that will be the next line of arguement, however, it's harder to prove RMT than some people think.

Blizzard is having the same problem with Gold Sellers, and have banned several accounts that aren't guilty of selling gold, trying to find the best way to detect the problem accounts.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I sense an "SE doesn't care" or "SE doesn't do enough" argument forthcoming...

Oh, you know it. Unfortunately, as ineffective as SE has been, they are still the only ones with both the resources and the right to do this. Mere players do not, and never will.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I sense an "SE doesn't care" or "SE doesn't do enough" argument forthcoming...

From what I understand their bi-annual cullings deal more with taking gil out of the economy, rather than stopping the players who are earning the gil. This just leaves us with RMT using methods to make gil that are increasingly underhanded and against the ToS. Though I can't say I don't appreciate their efforts, I'm a bit concerned that they don't handle the situation in full.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Based on the results of this investigation, more than 250 accounts among those found to be involved in large-scale RMT operations have been terminated. We will continue to monitor accounts suspected of dealing in gil created or obtained in an unfair manner. Thanks to these measures, more than 250 billion gil has been removed from circulation.

Not knowing the population of the game and what not, this seems like a "good start" or what have you. Quoted from the news artical from playonline.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

That was across all servers, meaning 7-8 accounts per server. Kind of a tiny dent, but still something.

The sad fact is that in many cases, RMT are just farming up gil normally. So they aren't actually breaking the TOS in action, but they are in intent, I guess. So it's hard for SE to just outright ban them, or something. I don't know. It's the same issue every MMO has with getting rid of them.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Ah... curses... I did say I was done for now... but I have a correction to make. That post that I referenced in my last post was uh... dated last year. /slap <me>. Quite old of course. Though the logs would still reflect what SE would have their GMs do about RMT, which is next to nothing. Sorry about the age of that reference though, something I shouldn't have overlooked. But heck, while I'm on this and there are new replies....

Mhurron: Save the "crybaby" excuse. People used to use it to make themselves seem like they know what's really going on, and unfortunately for you people have already caught on and jumped off the bandwagon. There are several HNMLS's on Seraph. Many compete with one another, and although there have been some incredibly heated threads on NM claim disputes between 2 different shells (Allak, not here), they didn't resort to calling one another Gilsellers and such. You're pretty quick to jump to conclusions about how the list came to be, but if you spoke with several players from Seraph and they've told you all about it, I'd like to know who and what was said, so that I know you're not just pulling your 'in-the-know' from the back door.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

They found and banned the cow accounts, or as they call them in Vegas the 'whales'. They still leave us with the botters and 24/7 campers.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

I'm just saying, the 250 banned accounts, is directly proportional to the number of total accounts.

I'll farm gil, I know I will, I want to be in the position to outfit my new jobs as best I can, doesn't make me a bad guy at all.

In related news, Blizzard banned thousands of accounts recently, 1000's, but next to the near 7 million subscribers it's a tiny dent. It's all realative.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

LOL. Well, its true. Seams like everytime SE actually -does- something there's always one person who think its the end of the world because that's "all" SE did.

And just so I don't derail the thread: I don't like the thought of the list. I have no problem keeping away from people who are in my experience RMTers. I don't mind sharing with my LSmates this information.

As much I personally don't agree with it and won't personally participate in it, I don't see a problem with listing the 24/7 people. The HELM bots, people who can be very easily shown to never log off but constantly doing things. THat sorta situation.

What I -do- have an issue with is listing people "by association." Where do you draw the line? I have RL friends who buy gil. I think they are retarded for doing it. I bitch them out constnatly about it and make snide comments every time they spend large amounts of gil. I do everything in my power to try and convince them not to buy gil. But I still party with them. I still level with them. I still help them with quests (though I personally draw the line at casting sneak/invis on someone who buys 4mil a week) because they are my real life friends and the reason I got the game in the first place.

They support RMT. I play with them. Does that make me a bad person?

I will also raise anyone I see dead as I'm passing by. I don't check to see if they are RMT or not. Hell, only time I do any investigation is "White Mage?" if I'm short on time so I know who to raise. I do this because I expect passing White Mages to do the same for me (and have had many RMT raise me randomly for no reason other than I was dead).

So if I raise a RMT am I bad person, black listable by association?

What if said RMT is camping Hakutaku eyes and I need the coffer key in SSG. He sends me a tell "Key Do you need it?" and invites me to party. I'd accept if he wasn't RMT, so should I refuse if he is RMT?

If I accept the key am I guilty by association?

What if an RMT gets agrod by something and is near death. Should I not cast Cure V?

The fact of the matter is I am a genuinly nice guy as much as I normally say otherwise. I treat people - everyone - the way I expect to be treated. As a White Mage, I tend to even go out of my way a little.

So at what point am I guilty by association?

If you want an idea on how to eliminate RMT, here's my solution. Don't buy gil. Don't buy accounts, and don't buy gil. Don't make lists, but shun those people who do buy gil and accounts. Change those people.

Look at it this way. RMT is a job from the seller perspective. Peer preasure has nothing to do with it. Financial motivation and putting food on the table are what its all about. RMT from the gil buyer perspective is a purely luxery want. It is -much- more suceptable to peer preasure. So preasure the buys to stop buying.

2cents

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

Very well said Sevenpoint, very well said. Agreed 110% (as a future white mage) :D

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

My father (who plays on Valefor, not Bahamut, so I can't /slap him in game) told me the other day that he bought a million gil from some website. I did my best to explain why it's bad, and why he shouldn't do it, and so on and so forth, but he just didn't get it. This is a game to him, and he doesn't see why it's such a big deal.

He never was very good at economics, but there you have it.

[M_X]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

I was originally going to replay in a aggressive support for the list; replying to every point and arguement made against it.

Then I started to read all the posted and realized that all of these arguements and point have been made before/beaten into the ground.

The only thing I will say is, The List is only maintained by Cole/RunningDemon. The players of the Seraph server made the list. We the players made it because we wanted it.

Go ahead and make your arguements and points debating the ethics and validity of The List. But as time has proved, the only thing you're accomplishing is jacking up your post count.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

I originaly goint to replay in a aggressive support for the list; replying to every point and arguement made against it.

Then I started to read all the posted and realized that all of these arguements and point have been made before/beaten into the ground.

The only thing I will say is, The List is only maintained by Cole/RunningDemon. The players of the Seraph server made the list. We the players made it because we wanted it.

Go ahead and make your arguements and points debating the ethics and validity of The List. But as time has proved, the only thing you're accomplishing is jacking up your post count.

Well, that helps me with my newest problem with the game "which server to play on", with a horrible community that blacklists people who may not know any better. You aren't presenting a "welcome new guys" neon sign.