Greivances with "The List"

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Which is why there is Murder 1, Murder 2, and the various Manslaughter laws. Any legal system must take into account the possibility of sudden loss of rationality.

Not sure of the relevance here. There's no MPK1 or MPK2, nor would the existence of either make them any more ok to incite with something like the list.

To respond to Lyceius, yes, I would imagine a lot of griefing happens as a result of strong emotion affecting someone's judgement, but usually they're short lived. I think a case of someone reading the list on this form, becoming suddenly angered against the people on the list, then logging onto the game, finding one of the people, recognizing the name from the long list in their hampered intellectual state and doing something ill-advised before the emotion fades would be a rare occurance. Maybe if someone had a prior grudge against a name on the list they might be reminded of them and be incensed to go do something to them, but I don't think the list should be held accountable for the possibility.

Double Post Edited:
If that came across as snide or pedantic, it was unintentional.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

People have asked me for some kind of proof in the past. I have asked then what they want to know, many times giving them names of officers from endgame LSs after I find what endgame HNMLSs they know, in order for them to get confirmation.

[Oregonaut]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Not sure of the relevance here. There's no MPK1 or MPK2, nor would the existence of either make them any more ok to incite with something like the list.

The relevance was that sometimes people do silly things for silly reasons that make perfect sense to THEM at the time. Murder 1 is premeditated out and out I'm going to stab him and no one is going to stop me even though I KNOW it is wrong killings. Murder 2 is the slightly less heinous but still wrong "I only meant to rough him up a little but I ended up killing him" killings. Both of those people knew what they were doing, more often than not, and were doing them for the wrong reason, or no reason at all. Someone claiming that the list incited something like this would be found guilty of either of those. The previous post about "heat of the moment" anger type killings may fall under something along the lines of Manslaughter, but they'd have to do a pretty funny dance to convince someone that they were so outraged by the mere existance of someone selling Gil ([GM]Dave) that they just out and out MPK'd them without thought.

There was an attempt at subtle irony in my original post, however I failed at my /irony check, rolled a one, got hit with a critical failure, blew my attempt at a save by rolling yet another one, and got smote by the great pancake for it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

So no, I don't expect every single person who's told they're grouped with GS to leave the party. Depending on situational circumstances those people may not need to be recommended for the list. Simply those who are well-informed enough to know. Certainly those in endgame activities know. Even some who are lower.

Being in endgame, however, is not the badge of authority some would like to believe it is. It doesn't make you a good player nor does it make you a GM.

I had two instances in the last several months where I found myself possibly PTing with a gilseller. On instance was a VoS PT I was invited too. I was DRG at the time, we had a THF and as many know, thats one of the best bread-and-butter SATA scenarios.

So the THF goes to pull, both of us assuming the NIN knew what to expect from us. Bird pulled to camp, I provoke and the NIN provokes before the THF can land SATA.

...

So I get into the translator and explain "[Dragoon] 1st [Provoke] >>> [Theif] [Sneak Attack][Trick Attack] [Ninja]."

And he says "[Understood]"

So THF goes to pull next mob, pulls in a raptor this time. I provoke and before the THF can SATA, the NIN provokes right after. Since the THF couldn't plant hate and the NIN doesn't use anything but Utsusemi, I end up pulling hate and die even after super jump..

...

Now I'm there asking myself how a level 60 NIN wouldn't know how to work in a SATA setup, as such an arrangment only benfits a tanks hate control. And then... I get a raise from somone not our PT yet with a name quite similar to the name of the WHM in my PT. We apparently had some PLer I hadn't noticed off in the backgroud.

Why would a PT need a PL in VoS?
Why wouldn't a NIN know about SATA setups at 60?
The NIN had good gear, but still...

Simple answer in my mind is either they're either RMT or bought accounts, there's really no other reason. Nobody can be THAT noobish. Realizing the situation, I equip my trick staff and warp back to Jeuno.

Now, the other situation was in CN. I was fighting crawlers and pulling as RNG. Setup was a little odd, after all, you don't see many SAM/WHMs, but w/e, she was doing ok.

Anyway, all's well until this 75 MNK shows up and tells us the BRD we're PTing with is RMT.. Like RunningDemon, he's using endgame as a basis for his claim and threatsto kill all our EXP mobs if we don't disband this supposed seller. He calls out an NPC for his inevitable scapegoat to the GM and starts killing when the leader refuses to disband the BRD without solid proof.

At the time, there was no real way of knowing if this BRD was in fact a seller. Just some random asshat's word and threats. That's not sufficent evidence for anyone. None of the people in my PT were in endgame or cared much about it, either. So he came off as an elitest jerk for killing our mobs.

Now the BRD didn't have the best equipment, but speaking as an experienced BRD, there's a lot of people who equip the job poorly 1-75. So a poorly-equipped BRD does not equal RMT BRD in my mind. Even if the BRD spoke english, telling them the virtues of having HQ instruments and uses of flute vs harp would likely have fallen on deaf ears. To RMT and general player, this is going to their mealticket to 75 no matter what, to hell with playing it right.

Disbanding the BRD wouldn't have stopped them from levelling... they're a BRD. They levelled up five times after that PT. And for all we knew, the MNK could have just not liked the guy and called him that to blackmail him.

The List is already a failure, it won't change anything. That MNK didn't save Titan by killing my PT's EXP mobs and we wouldn't have changed anything by disbanding the alleged RMT, only deprived ourselves of a night of EXP since no other RDM, BRD, COR or BLU were seeking at our level. As I said, the BRD had five more levels by the time I logged in the next day.

Even if SE were to take all RMTs on The List and delete/IP ban accounts, the RMTs would just start from the bottom, change IPs and work their way up again. Its a vicious cycle.

Sony tried to legitimize RMT with The Station on EQ2 on select servers, so the players themselves could RMT if they wanted. This would allow people who wanted to play legit servers free of RMT, right?

Nope, RMTs like IGE still have a presence on the supposed "legit" servers. Same problems as always. Nothing has changed.

As long as the desire for the image of being a high level player exists and people are willing to spend real money to do so, RMTs will exist. Causing drama, blackmailing and MPKing people will not solve the problem.

And honestly, SE's countermeasures are more of a solution than anything else I can think of. With the recent changes made to gil transfer in a delivery box, RMTs and their mules have been forced out into the open to /trade only to be nabbed by GMs. New accounts will be opened and new mules made, sure, the cycle will begin anew, but its honestly a better effort than The List is.

Let SE do their jobs, just play the game.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well, that person is not me, and I have no idea about the RMT situation on your server or the MNK in question or anything. Sounds more to me like crappy players than RMT.

And I do not expect the list to save the world. It is a tool to be used by those on Seraph.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well, that person is not me, and I have no idea about the RMT situation on your server or the MNK in question or anything. Sounds more to me like crappy players than RMT.

Our situation is no different than that of Seraph's. Checking around after the PT, I did find reasons to suspect the MNK's claim to be true and at a PT I had in GC the next week the accused RMT was there in an RMT shell.

However, this is information I had to dig up myself as the MNK would not provide my prior PT with concrete evidence that the BRD was indeed RMT. Had that MNK been you, I'd be on your list and quite unfairly placed there.

At the time the MNK made the accusation, there was no reason to believe him since his basis was HNM camps and most of my PT wasn't in endgame. I've been out of endgame for a while, I know what its like to camp against RMT at kings, however, I can't keep a running tab on all RMTs on my server. If I did, I'd never level my jobs or enjoy the game. As such, in the CN PT, I had no reason to believe the MNK's claim. I had not encounterned this RMT before, I know of many on my server, but this was a new one on me.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

If I was sure it was a RMT, then yes. You would have been given time, this web site, and an opportunity to leave. Then you would be placed here. If you come here afterwards, saying you were not sure and all and that it was wrong and if you wouldn't do it again (about what I can gather from your stance on the situation in posts), then you would be removed.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

RD to Complains: "Why are you complaining? Most of you aren't even on my server!"

Complain#1: "Why don't you understand what you're doing is wrong? On any server?"

Complain#2: "And, the wrong thing is that you bully and intimidate players for nothing more than being in same party as RMT!"

Complain#3: "You demand faith and obedience from people who don't even know you!"

Complain#4: Blah blah rehash of the stuff everyone else said already.

Complain#5: Different proportion of Complain #1-3.

Complain#6: etc.

RD: "Dude! Quit griefing me, you don't understand where I'm coming from. I just want to do things my way and this is important to me! I even asked for permission from higher authority and got it! I'm going to ignore you and continue on."

<Then #1-6 start to repeat themselves again.>

RD: <repeat> <repeat> <repeat>

... (some time later)...

RD to RandomGuy in party: "HEY YOU EVIL VIOLATOR! You're partying with a KNOWN GILSELLER! Stop now or suffer consequences!"

Randomguy in party: "Huh? What? Who are you and who appointed you god?! Stop bugging me, I finally got a party after 5 days seeking and I'm not leaving. I pay my monthly fee and I'll play the way I want!"

RD: "That's it, your name will be known to all! You're going down!"

Randomguy in party: "</blist> <You can have this.>"

* * *
I left out some naming calling, but I think I got the gist of it. Is this going to reach 20 pages?

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

That's about it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

If I was sure it was a RMT, then yes. You would have been given time, this web site, and an opportunity to leave. Then you would be placed here. If you come here afterwards, saying you were not sure and all and that it was wrong and if you wouldn't do it again (about what I can gather from your stance on the situation in posts), then you would be removed.

However, I would have no obligation to "apologize" and you would have no right to place me on that list regardless. You're not on different plane of existance than any other player. You are not God.

Without proof, there is no reason for someone to believe you. A random player's word is simply not enough for me to throw away an evening of EXP, no matter how accomplished the player believes themeselves to be or what they have seen. I'll do the homework and make my decisions on who is RMT and if I find them in my PT I will inform the leader or leave, thank you very much. What I won't do is harrass people and paste their names up online on some forum, because if they've only got my word to go on, its probably not enough.

Your list fails because it not only won't change anything on Seraph and runs a high risk of targeting innocent players. In the end, you've really just become what you seek to destroy - people who disrupt the game experience for their personal gain. Yes, you do have something to gain from this - attention, you seek to be a hero for a cause. Yet you're willing to ruin the game experience for others over what quite arguably is an honest mistake everyone has made.

We've all PTed with or aided RMT somehow. It may have been an NM drop in the AH. You could have PLed them, EXPed with them. You may have BCNMed with them. There's really no way to go back and prove this, but there's really a much broader scope of ways to aid RMTers unknowingly than just PTing with them.

I mean, are you going to stalk evey RNG that buys an E Bow off the AH and is sold by a RMT on there? I'm sure the RMT on Seraph bot the Eastern Shadow 24/7 and that sales would likely be connected to a specific player or mule.

Its just sooooo broad you can't cover all the bases, you're not going to change a thing. And even if you did, you'd inevitably have everyone on the server against you because, by some random, innocent association, they've aided RMT.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

There is proof provided as asked for by the admins on this site. The offenders are given the address. They will be removed if they admit what they did was wrong.

Your arguement fails.


edit-spelling

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

There is proof provided as asked for by the admins on this site. The offenders are given the address. They will be removed if they admit what they did was wrong.

Your arguement fails.

Read my post again, I wasn't talking about proof for the admins. I was talking about real proof for the players in-game.

As for your "proof," i see only one link with pictures for some specific players, I'm not going to bother with the other bajillion pages likely in that thread as it should just be in the original post anyway. One link does not make a list of names that big,

Anyway, I can see I'm just wasting my time, I'll forward my complaints to PiNG. You'll reap what you sow.

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

Read my post again, I wasn't talking about proof for the admins. I was talking about real proof for the players in-game.

As for your "proof," i see only one link with pictures for some specific players, I'm not going to bother with the other bajillion pages likely in that thread as it should just be in the original post anyway. One link does not make a list of names that big

You probably should 'bother with the bajillion pages' since you're discussing what's in there. How can you discuss something if you haven't even read it?

[Matera]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

On topic:

I would love to see a list like this on my server, but I'd also hate it.

Knowing the gilsellers:

As the old proverb goes, Keep your friends close, Enemies closer.

I'd hate it because there could be mistakes, innocents could be wrongly accused, etc...

But since SE is constantly touching themselves instead of banning the sellers, we should take it into our own hands, even though we can't even do that anymore.

So, all-in-all:

Can anybody really do anything?

No.

Seeing as that's the case, should we bother?

No, it's fucking pointless.


Believe me, I hate gilsellers. I could only hope they were gone. But, I think SE knows that if they actually got off their ass, not only would the gilseller accounts be deducted from their profit margin, but the fucking assholes that buy the gil too, and only play for the "fun stuff".

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

Thing is, everyone who plays regularly knows who the sellers are on their server. I appreciate you can never 100% prove someone is a seller but if the same people are in the same zone 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months a year, then it's a pretty damned good indication they are either gilsellers or at least sharing account information which is still a ToS violation.