Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

[DakAttack]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

"... generates enough enmity...".

Obviously he didn't generate enough to claim, or counter the amount his friend generated from being attacked by the NM, who was in a different party in the alliance right?

[Taskmage]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

"to attack him"

According to the patch notes, you're supposed to get claim when your enmity level reaches a point where the mob attacks you instead of its original target.

[DakAttack]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

He used Shadowbind, of course it's going to attack the nearest person on its enmity list.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

Except that I thought (now) Shadowbind + bind mobs only attack people who are in party/alliance that -claimed- the mob to prevent bind/shadowbind mpk. Or is that something they only talked about doing?

[Taskmage]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

As of Dec 13th "-Monsters that have been rendered immobile with the "Bind" spell will not attack anyone other than the party or alliance that it is targeting."

Unfortunately, the screenshot does not provide enough information about who as and was not in range to determine whether Cort was in fact at the top of the hate list -_- so on that point I will have to admit defeat. However I think it should be clear enough that Cort was having to compete on the hate list with a member of his own alliance to achieve claim, essentially forcing the alliance to steal the mob from itself. That in itself is clearly a bug, if not in implementation than in design.

[Nakti]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

Taskmage, thanks for reminding me of SE's exact words. I had read their article on the new claiming system and thought "ok that makes sense" but wasn't too sure of how it would be applied.

In the case where the action of B generates enough enmity to cause the monster to attack him, he claims the monster.

It seems that SE only tested cases where unclaimed mobs were already on a "hate list" (ie from an AoE attack). My particular situation involved aggro, not "hate", but I feel that the spirit of the new system is flawed.

I generated enough enmity to cause the unclaimed monster to attack me instead of the other player, but I did *not* receive claim as I believe I should have.

If "A", then "B". If "generate enough hate" (to be attacked yourself), then "get claim". Seems pretty straight-forward.

I'm filing my bug report now.

[DakAttack]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

I guess I can't truely say it's not broken without SE publishing another picture that involves alliances. Other than alliance issues it does seem to be spot on.

[Taskmage]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

Well there is also the issue that because hate from different actions seems to decay at different speeds, you can still be MPKed by a mob that is claimed by another player, which is specifically what the change was supposed to prevent.

Double Post Edited:
P.S. I just have to give Impaction credit for solidly owning me on the Bind example. Seriously pissed me off. I thought that was check and mate, but because the move was Shadowbind it proves nothing.

[Medalink]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

P.S. I just have to give Impaction credit for solidly owning me on the Bind example. Seriously pissed me off. I thought that was check and mate, but because the move was Shadowbind it proves nothing.

I admire you to even compete against hm.... You have my respects.

Medalink

[little ninja]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

i dunno i think the hate system is broke as well. just the other night i couldnt voke a imp with +40 eminity from another pt who aggroed him. you wouldnt think aggro would produce more hate then a voking +40 eminity ninja. not to mention their puller was /nin. an shadows are suppose to reduce eminity. yeah i can pull hate from a pld, when first comming into a kirin fight. but i cant pull hate from an aggroed mob that nobody has done nothing to is ghetto. an broke. call it a stupid glitch. that still means its broke.

FYI granny says its broken an it freakin sucks. well then ITS BROKEN AN IT FREAKIN SUCKS BELIEVE IT!!!!!

[DakAttack]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

That brings up the topic of +enmity and initial agression. I don't think additional enmity has any effect on the initial agression, and it would make sense that additional enmity wouldn't have an effect on claiming an unclaimed enemy who is currently targeting somebody in a different party. Usually a Provoke is all that's necessary to pull an unclaimed monster off somebody else, but if their puller was running back to camp with their own claimed Imp there's really no doubt that he caused extra enmity by running, which was enough to keep your Provoke from claiming.

I'm not exactly sure what constitutes as running away. I've seen on several occasions that when a passerby stops to heal me and I retain hate with Provoke, that when they run away my target will give chase. Occasionall they'll chase them to the zone, but most of the time they run a little bit then just turn around and come back.

[Amarok]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

I'm not sure if my recent situation was because of the new changes, perhaps someone could tell me...

I needed to get to Al Zahbi and only had my Olduum ring left as a quick method to get there, so I warped on over there and started the run to Al Zahbi with my oils and Tonko ready.

Just as I finish crossing the last field of tigers and marboro, I see a BRD sleeping a tiger and then running towards Al Zahbi. I'm running close behind her so I check her status and she is more than half dead at lvl 75. I then see the tiger wake and catch her back up and she sleeps it again.

I think to myself (I'm MNK66/NIN33), I can help here. So I stop and Utsusemi up, which takes away my sneak and invis status and proceed to follow the nearly dead BRD with Chi Blast at the ready on the tiger. Just as it wakes up I attempt to Chi Blast (tiger is yellow text) but Chi doesn't fire. I keep spamming it thinking its lag, but still no go. Then the BRD gets hit, dies and my Chi Blast spamming suddenly kicks in and I get Tiger hate and claim.

Even though I couldn't save the BRD I found myself running for my own life and had about 200 HP left when I zoned (from 1664 and 3 shadows), man those tigers hit hard.

I was annoyed my effort hadn't saved the BRD, but more annoyed that I couldn't chi-blast a yellow mob to even attempt to get hate away from her.

Ama

[Taskmage]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

Hard to say without having seen it. It may have just been a factor of distance, with the bard's death making the tiger stop running and allowing you to catch up to it. Did it give you an error message of any kind? If it was unclaimed and there was no other factor preventing you from attacking, this is the first I've heard of the problem.

[little ninja]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

That brings up the topic of +enmity and initial agression. I don't think additional enmity has any effect on the initial agression, and it would make sense that additional enmity wouldn't have an effect on claiming an unclaimed enemy who is currently targeting somebody in a different party. Usually a Provoke is all that's necessary to pull an unclaimed monster off somebody else, but if their puller was running back to camp with their own claimed Imp there's really no doubt that he caused extra enmity by running, which was enough to keep your Provoke from claiming.

I'm not exactly sure what constitutes as running away. I've seen on several occasions that when a passerby stops to heal me and I retain hate with Provoke, that when they run away my target will give chase. Occasionall they'll chase them to the zone, but most of the time they run a little bit then just turn around and come back.

so why does a puller lose hate over distance for normal exp set ups to the point the mob depops? if running does cause eminity over time. mobs would "NEVER" depop. yet they do (hole1). ever voke a mob in a pt setup an try to zone it. you will notice you sometimes lose hate over distance, an the mob will stop chasing, an go to the second highest hate holder. if a mobs eminity grows over distance. over a long pull a tank in a pt set up would find it next to impossible to pull the mob off the puller. thus the puller would die almost everytime, or mages would waste a good chunk of mana keeping him alive. (hole2). eminity causes all actions to become more potent. spells, ja, vokes, thus why tanks stock up on it, mages an bst buy gear to get rid of it. becauses its a factor on lvl 1 mobs, an lvl 85 mobs.

[Ziero]

Re: Let Square-Enix know their MPK fix is broken

To those who say 'learn how to claim better' and other crap

I hit a Goobbue with a Gaxe for well over 100 Dmg

I Used Voke

I Used Warcry

I Used Boost twice

I hit it with a Bloody bolt for crying out loud

I STILL lost hate on it to a Bst that sent his pet on it AFTER I attacked it. There is something wrong with the system.

Now as for that Screen shot of the Shikigami Weapon

Cort was the one who aggroed the mob, was the one who first engaged the mob with a JA(whether it's 'low' hate or not) and was the first to be ATTACKED by the mob. That should have been MORE then enough to claim it as all three actions(Aggroing a mob, attacking a mob and evading it's attack) all build hate. Yet he still lost claim on something he obviously started fighting first.

This update was supposed to prevent two things:

1) Mobs with hate on one person yet claimed by another. This can occur via attacking mobs others have slept, over curing someone fighting a monster, or otherwise causing large hate gain on something another person is already fighting.

2) Preventing large, endgame monsters, who can randomly go unclaimed, from being stolen. Due to a pre existing glitch in the game, some monsters will turn yellow mid fight and a voke spamming bot could have pulled hate from the original alliance.

In all of the situations mentioned, niether of these events have been described. They've all been fighting for INITIAL claim, which should NOT have been changed at all, or trying to help someone and failing. In such a case, the new claim system has completely and utterly failed to be helpful. Provoke should NOT be the only way to make an initial claim. Monsters should NOT depop because of a long pull. These are problems with the new claim system that need to be worked out.