What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

[Mhurron]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Well, I suppose if choosing to play second fiddle to BRD and RDM is COR's description then ya, I guess you are happy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Well, I suppose if choosing to play second fiddle to BRD and RDM is COR's description then ya, I guess you are happy.

If second fiddle is getting invites just about as fast and getting to be a damage dealer within a support class, that's a win/win in my book. There there's that whole Corsair's Roll thing, helps boost those limit points if the PT setup can justify it.

And I only play second fiddle to a BRD when I choose to since, well, I'm a 75 BRD, too.

[Sevv]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Welcome to the super post:

God you people have no grasp on context.
The whole conversation has been about BRD + RDM in a merit PT. For the love of god, read before you start posting.

This is where about the convo starts not even fully on topic

That made me lol a bit.
It also mentions one of MY pet peeves: people who refuse to merit without a bard.
ESPECIALLY when there's a corsair right there LFP, who has a number of similar buffs in HIS arsenal and makes a great puller also.
...
If you're not a bard or a melee, you're, well...
If you're a smn you go out and solo or join a manaburn.
If you're a rdm you go out and solo or join a manaburn.
If you're a blm you go out and build or join a manaburn.
If you're a whm...lolwhm.
I DON'T want to have to level a whole nother job to 75 just to get merits, on my whm, but it's REALLY looking like that's what I'm going to have to do.

Then we moved into the convo more with

You can complain all you want, but if you see this a lot you're just hanging out with idiots.

Which was replied to with:

Actually I think rdm gets invited to the 'unwanted people' merit pt's with pld's (Who apparently don't count as dd) and a couple of other random jobs that are considered gimpy (DRG comes to mind, but Midgard also has drgburns in the same style as manaburn, 6 drgs or 5 drg and a brd). But with rdm and pld, healing is covered, so whm doesn't get the love anyway.
It bums me out. I know back when I was in my 40's I used to talk to 75 whm's just for advice and I got told that whm was in high demand for endgame. Apparently times have changed.

So we finally started to move into rdm or whm with bard with the next post:

"Lol y we ned rdm? brd cn haste."
...
And as I understand it, RDM and WHM are interchangeable, possibly with a slight prefrence going to rdm because they have more offensive magic.
Maybe it's different on your server or in your timezone.

Correct about red mages getting more pts but wrong about why.

Again, no. Standard Melee Burn merit party is: 4DD (WAR/NIN is heavy favorite) BRD and RDM.
RDM is, as it was before, a highly sought after job. It's just not must have for the same reasons as before.

Now we got into Rdm and Brd Pts aka tp burns.

Then we get the reason of why rdms get the boost:

RDM are a preference because of convert, not because of black magic.

follow by your post of:

No, they're not. If a RDM is converting each time its up, something is wrong with the PT or how that RDM spends MP. RDMs are preferred over WHM for refresh+haste+cures in one package, nothing more.

Convert and refresh are what sets rdm away from whm. Because with a brd your basic list of +mp is this
Whm~/smn auto-refresh ~ sanction refresh ~Ballad 1 + 2 ~ Nobles tunic (Tho i forgot in my original post i added it here but credit to Tokitoki because i overlooked it)

Rdm ~ Sanction Refresh ~ Ballad 1 + 2 ~ Refresh ~Convert

Both have haste cure and raise, ofcourse whm get r2 and r3. Convert is a huge bonus to why Rdm chosen over whm. If you seriously believe convert isn't a deciding factor please dear god stop meriting.

Edited it to 1 line to save space. You now see w/o convert the difference is 1mp/tic


To continue the convo I will break down your post:

Since you're wrong, why don't you just stop meritting?
OK, its a deciding factor for people who don't play RDM, don't play it right or unthinking melees who pull too much hate and are too damn retarded to count thier shadows. But a good RDM shouldn't need to constantly convert in merit PTs, especially with a BRD present giving them ballads.

It is a deciding factor overall please stop trying to write it off, because you are wrong here bbq. Tp burn which is what were are talking about is shared hate no one is tanking, also in ToAU merit pt most mobs have a ability that ignores or wipes shadows, as well as -ga magic. So you have a high % of actually having to cast and use mp. If those were no -ga no wipe or ignore moves brd/nin brd/whm and no mages.

Shit, I've done COR+WHM and pulled high chains because my melees could count their shadows and the WHM knew how to spend their MP. Evoker's+Healer's Roll on that WHM and he would never tap out. It wasn't even WARx4. It was SAM/MNK/DRK/NIN/COR/WHM.

None of this counts for anything stay in context bbq there is no brd or no rdm so this has no point or weight in your convo.

It can be done without convert, but not refresh or +hMP. Hence, Refresh is why RDM is preferred.

+hMP was not in context if you want to get picky. Remember the difference is +1mp/tic that is no reason.

If you have RDM+BRD in your PT and everyone is /NIN, the RDM should not need to convert often.
If you have 600 MP and Convert is up, why the hell would you convert? Just because its there?
Merriting convert is merriting a job ability for endgame purposes. That's different. Merit PTs are not endgame.

Who the hell converts at 600mp, that is beyond dumb to even say, Meriting convert makes you overall a better rdm, due to the more accessibility to MP pool. This works in all parts of the game. "Endgame is not the whole game" think you have said that before.

Depends on what you are fighting also...
Against birds? Providng you have decent melee, then MP useage is pretty minimal. But I have had tard melees that cant count shadows, so I spend lots of MP. Not so much that I "run out" but still.
Against Mamool? MP use is much higher. Not going bother explaining why.
bbq, you have to remember that not every gets these meripos that are perfect. Most of mine are decent, but they are just that, decent - not outstanding.
Oh, and I also have partied with plenty of brds that cant keep ballad on me even 50% of the time.
Lots of factors!

About the most truth from a poster in this convo, and he merits as Rdm so he should know about mp usage.

It can be done without Haste and refresh too. So I suppose those are also not reasons why RDM gets chosen either?
RDM is chosen over WHM because they do not rest. They don't have to because of Refresh AND Convert, because those two abilities are what makes it look like RDM has limitless MP.
OMFG you can merit without 4x WAR's, BRD and a RDM, someone call Rick Romero and get him on this scoop.
No one said you have to have a RDM, they stated why RDM is popular. And you can argue till you're blue in the face that you can do it without a RDM - BRD and while you're right that doesn't change the following:
RDM is popular
RDM is popular because of Refresh and Convert.

Again a rdm weighs in on why the job is picked (even if he does hide in bushes more then merit =D)

My last post just so you reread it.

I play rdm actually for a second time lol, I don't convert every 10 min or even close to every 10 min lol. [b]Show me where in my post I said Convert is huge for that every 10 min use. When building a long chain party, I enjoy picking rdm's because of refresh and convert, because I know if we get in that tight spot where mp is very low and chain may stop with a whm, that convert just bought us alot more exp without stopping. Mp wears alot by chain 270, convert well place got me to chain 365 in nyzule isle. People don't chose their healer based on 1 ability they chose it based on the whole package, so don't play it off like refresh or gtfo! [b]
Seriously you leveled Rdm right? You ever done the burn pt on it eventually you will hit low spot on mp especially when some firespits ignore shadows. Mamjool Camp @ nyzule isle + birds when you clear waiting on pops will hurt mp. It is all based on the full job not one spell. Thats why i invite Red Mage before whms (i have seen some whm do amazing things in the game don't get me wrong) and Bards before corsairs for the buffs/sleep/pull (Meet a few good corsairs from my ls just have bad luck with most of them, and brds treat me well.)

I almost fell out of my chair from laughing, which would have been bad since I'm at work.
Ok since Refresh is the reason they are invited lets look at this.
WHM/SMN lv75
Larger base MP pool (usually)
Nobles Tunic
Auto-refresh
Sanction refresh
3mp/tick
RDM/WHM lv75
Convert (which leads to more MP overall)
Refresh
Sanction refresh
4mp/tick
Yes that 1 more mp/tick is so much better. Granted the RDM COULD have Duelist's Chapeau for another 1mp/tick, but a lot of Dynamis shells have trouble getting those so it's not a common thing.
So who is going to do better in the long run? The RDM. Why? Not because of his 1 extra MP/tick (though it does add up in a 3hr long PT), but because if we are pulling mobs constantly, if they dont have time to rest he can easily Convert. A WHM will have to rest to get their MP back which isn't so bad with a good amount of hMP, but the RDM can have the same gear.
It's definitely not about Cures and Haste in one package... *cough*

Granted he did the mp/tick w/o ballads involved but it still holds the same weight on jobs and refresh.


SO there is your break down about context, you left context once about your corsair and whm pt, and Toki slightly left by forgetting to add in ballads.


The rest of you last post

If you have BRD + RDM + sanction, why would the RDM need to convert? 7 MP per tick from this combination.
Again, if you need to convert after that, something is wrong with the PT or the RDM.

Like stated I don't know what you highest chain is but you will need to convert between chain 1 and chain 365, trust me it happens but again maybe you don't get that high and all because you don't like tp burns so would you know about the reasons?

If your BRD isn't keeping ballad on the RDM, have the balls to tell that BRD to find another PT. If you can't get melee that will keep shadows up, find melee who will. If the RDM only uses Cure IV to heal people, find another one.

I have kicked shitty bards, i have no problem doing it. If a melee sucks ass he is gone, same with red mage. But then I am told by people in tp burn threads I am an arrogant elitist for doing the same things and tp burning when, I have the people. Hell I haven't warx4 brd rdm in awhile, been exping with samurai's dragoons, theifs, beastmasters etc.

No, the topic was RDM is not wanted in merit parties. It may be true that we don't have a grasp of context, but you seem to need to work on abilities prior to that.

Or you know, they're partying and killing stuff very fast. I wouldn't need convert at all if i was just sitting in the Whitegate waiting for someone to pick me up because no RDM or BRD wasn't around either.

Mhurron is right if you look at the true topic and context it was about Rdms and why they get parties.


And to your little rant abut convert, If you leave everything the same and remove convert from the red mage list.

Whms would get every party over red mages. Want to know why?

Whm has a higher mp pool, red mage has 1mp/tic more of refresh but, whms can raise 3 you, can regen 3, added with that higher mp pool, whm would be the big merrit whore mage. Convert is the deal breaker bbq not refresh.


ps- Sev made a monster post hory shit

[Mhurron]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Dude, leave some page for the rest of us.

[Sevv]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Yeah, it really kills me that I get to play my jobs to thier description. You don't.

So wait you are trying to say people or mhurron doesn't play his job to its description, and you do? Don't make me laugh BBQ seriously lol. You are not on the same server as him or ever played with him, how do you know. I mean you are the one who said convert is useless outside endgame (or atleast for parties.)

Well, I suppose if choosing to play second fiddle to BRD and RDM is COR's description then ya, I guess you are happy.

Well if you take out his bard he is actually 3rd fiddle brd -> rdm -> cor/whm/war (for me atleast) Happy not being the best =D.

If second fiddle is getting invites just about as fast and getting to be a damage dealer within a support class, that's a win/win in my book. There there's that whole Corsair's Roll thing, helps boost those limit points if the PT setup can justify it.
And I only play second fiddle to a BRD when I choose to since, well, I'm a 75 BRD, too.

Honestly alot of parties don't even think about Corsairs when building, and yes that is a problem. Brd or no go cor the majority of the time play far down. Alot of the people who make parties go Brd-> Rdm -> War-> Mnk -> Nin -> Drk -> oh shit a cor is seeking!




Edit to mhurron: I was just taking space on the page as all the space i didn't use while posting "lol".

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Sev made all my posts look kinda contradictory...which they might well be. Not being a rdm I don't know a whole lot about their merit/invites situation. I was just trying to show a bit of how things work on midgard as far as I understand it.


The whole point I was Originally trying to get at is I wish people didn't have this "Only the absolute best, or nothing at all" mentality. And right now the 'absolute best' is brd related...which /I/ feel is rather arbitary.

[Mhurron]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

The whole point I was Originally trying to get at is I wish people didn't have this "Only the absolute best, or nothing at all" mentality. And right now the 'absolute best' is brd related...which /I/ feel is rather arbitary.

The whole point I was Originally trying to get at is I wish people didn't have this "Only the absolute best, or nothing at all" mentality. And pretty much always the 'absolute best' is a BRD - RDM party...which /I/ feel is rather arbitrary.

Fixed. Also, it's not arbitrary, there is a reason that happened.

[Mythos]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Yeah. It's not like people just decided that BRD was going to be the go-to job for most parties. It's the go-to job for a lot of good reasons.

[Kirsteena]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

I was in a merit party last night, and I needed to convert every 10 minutes (I try to base it round my DS timer). Why? I was on Mamool at Nyzul, and half the time I was without ballad. Those things are evil. Rushing Drub following immediately by Firespit will come close to downing any melee. I know, one of my wars died after that - he took 950 from Firespit just after losing every shadow. There just wasn't enough time. They weren't a crap party, they were a good solid party, with the exception of the (inexperienced) bard. Now, I know that I can get 5mp a tick by myself if I take sanction refresh, but without ballad I was kind of hurting for mp. See a stabler? Oh good, haste cycle has finished, pop a cookie, take a knee for a few ticks. All I can do. I count myself as a reasonable rdm, I have whm at 75 so I know how to main heal. But that camp is hard work.

Why do I go there? Cause if you have a party which knows what it is doing, it's one of the fastest for xp in the game. I've topped out at 28k an hour there, with 2 ridill wars and a BB monk. Colibri is a camp where you don't need it every 10 mins, I can generally go 15+. Trolls is a lovely easy camp. But that camp is really a hard one at times.

[Sevv]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Sev made all my posts look kinda contradictory...which they might well be.

Wasn't meant to, and it was just shown that way because of people pulling your words in different directions. You can make people seem to do anything if enough people pull your posts in certain directions. You may not know everything about merit set ups etc, but if you keep your eyes, ears, and mind open you will learn quick.

I was in a merit party last night, and I needed to convert every 10 minutes (I try to base it round my DS timer). Why? I was on Mamool at Nyzul, and half the time I was without ballad. Those things are evil. Rushing Drub following immediately by Firespit will come close to downing any melee. I know, one of my wars died after that - he took 950 from Firespit just after losing every shadow. There just wasn't enough time.

Ya it can get rough we usually will have 2-3 deaths in 4-5 hours of merits. Just because someone gets caught at the wrong time. nothing like diaga -> Firespit -> Rushing Drub ; ;. Alot of respect tho for keeping it going without a constant Ballad tho.

They weren't a crap party, they were a good solid party, with the exception of the (inexperienced) bard. Now, I know that I can get 5mp a tick by myself if I take sanction refresh, but without ballad I was kind of hurting for mp. See a stabler? Oh good, haste cycle has finished, pop a cookie, take a knee for a few ticks. All I can do. I count myself as a reasonable rdm, I have whm at 75 so I know how to main heal. But that camp is hard work.

Ya that camp can be alot of hard work for the Red Mage, seeing the party breaks around the Red Mage more on that camp than any other.

Why do I go there? Cause if you have a party which knows what it is doing, it's one of the fastest for xp in the game. I've topped out at 28k an hour there, with 2 ridill wars and a BB monk.

My best was 30k/hr 3 fully merit aberk ridill wars, my war, full merited amazing geared brd, and a fully pimped out rdm.

Colibri is a camp where you don't need it every 10 mins, I can generally go 15+. Trolls is a lovely easy camp. But that camp is really a hard one at times.

I hate birds because i have hate usually unless I party with shield. I despise trolls just because no matter what something always goes wrong at that camp somehow.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Well, I had a reply all workd out then the forums were down and I cut and paste some other stuff elsewhere.

Its gone. Meh.

How about we just agree to disagree. Different jobs get different kinds of PTs. Has your RDM or BRD been invited to a SMN PT? Maybe, but I really doubt RDMs see as much of that as I would.

I'd wager BRD and COR play the field a bit more than RDM does because at merit level its either healer in a melee burn or healer in a manaburn, the latter is rather rare. RDM pulling isn't uncommon, but I think most BRDs and CORs are just built better for it.

There's not many ,melee PTs where I'm not with a RDM or BRD or both, so I don't see a RDM convert that often because they have three stackable Refresh buffs going for them and Sanction, bringing us to potentially to 8-12 MP a tick. And its a buff I don't have to recast for 5 mins (well actually 5:40 with two Winning Streak merits).

I don't really PT with Same Melee Job x4 much these days because it isn't effective for my job, either. Never cared for it on my BRD even, because I knew I'd get stuck doing the same buffs over and over. I don't know why RDMs just keep playing the hand they've been dealt and just come to forums to cry about other jobs getting to melee why they're not allowed.

I don't see Callisto, WishMaster or Hyrist endlessly complain, I see them actually trying to buck the trend at least, even if I don't always agree with how they do it.

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

The whole point I was Originally trying to get at is I wish people didn't have this "Only the absolute best, or nothing at all" mentality. And right now the 'absolute best' is brd related...which /I/ feel is rather arbitary.

Fixed. I said what I meant. RDM has fallen by the wayside in Midgard for reasons that are situationally arbitrary.



As far as Sev goes, I probably DID say a lot of contradictory things, since I'm not a rdm and can NOT post first-hand about the invite situation about RDM. I know a RDM who seeks for merits on his DRG because it gets more invites than RDM.

Nuff said about the rdm-vs-brd situation on midgard.

Also, nuff said to Mhurrin why I excluded rdm from the quote he thought he could change without changing the meaning.

[Runningriot]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

my pet peeve is crappy ass bards.

[Kirsteena]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

I'd wager BRD and COR play the field a bit more than RDM does because at merit level its either healer in a melee burn or healer in a manaburn, the latter is rather rare. RDM pulling isn't uncommon, but I think most BRDs and CORs are just built better for it.
There's not many ,melee PTs where I'm not with a RDM or BRD or both, so I don't see a RDM convert that often because they have three stackable Refresh buffs going for them and Sanction, bringing us to potentially to 8-12 MP a tick. And its a buff I don't have to recast for 5 mins (well actually 5:40 with two Winning Streak merits).
I don't really PT with Same Melee Job x4 much these days because it isn't effective for my job, either. Never cared for it on my BRD even, because I knew I'd get stuck doing the same buffs over and over. I don't know why RDMs just keep playing the hand they've been dealt and just come to forums to cry about other jobs getting to melee why they're not allowed.
I don't see Callisto, WishMaster or Hyrist endlessly complain, I see them actually trying to buck the trend at least, even if I don't always agree with how they do it.

Personally, I don't mind it playing that hand in a merit situation only - I know there are other situations where I can play rdm to it's full potential (and I certainly never cry about not swinging a sword in meripo - that's for me to solo the stupid things I do). If you get a party that knows what it is doing, that set up is a dream as far as I am concerned. 3+ merits in a little over 90 minutes is good for me. I just ask for that ballad/whatever to help me out =). There is a huge difference to the 5mp a tick I can get on my own when sanction refresh kicks in, to the 7-8mp a tick I can get with a bard, and the higher with bard AND a cor. If I had that, certainly convert would gradually become more and more spread out.

I have to admit, I haven't often partied with cor (I did once on a good party on colibri, but not much after that) - I think our server has a mental block about them - either the ones we have are not very good, or people just don't think of them when building parties. Maybe one day I need to level cor to explore the potential - after sam!

[hongman]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

You are all wrong, I'm right.