Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

The shallow level = Gil belonging to non-gilsellers.

Uh, I thought that was the whole lake, you have the reservoir devoted to gil owned by gil-sellers. I don't think you can save the analogy at this point.

If you don't think this game has gil sinks, then you need to do more research. Dynamis and Limbus alone are huge gil sinks. Especially for the average player who doesn't farm every day. How many chocobos do you take every day? How many chocobos do you think everyone else uses? How many people do you think powerlevel crafts buy buying cheaper items from the guild? This all adds up.

I don't know much about dynamis or limbus, but from my understanding of the former it was 1 million to accomodate up to 64 people, is it not?

If I go out and kill a, as in a solitary, singluar goblin, I can cover an airship ride. Now, lets say I kill a hundred. If they're EP, that should take what, an hour, 2 hour tops? so I just created enough gil to cover 999 airship rides. How long will it take me to use that up?

And the answer to the latter part is "not many".

Regardless, it's irrelevant. The current gilsinks, whatever ones may exist, are insufficient to accomodate the current level of inflation.

[Rodin]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Uh, I thought that was the whole lake, you have the reservoir devoted to gil owned by gil-sellers. I don't think you can save the analogy at this point.

I think I should draw up a map or something. It would probably help with the analogy. To anyone else who gets it, I think it's understandable. Just don't try to read into it too hard.

Gil = Water

Player Base (Not including gilsellers) = Lower Level of the Lake.

Reservoir = Gilsellers only.

[Aeolus]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Makes sense to me. The game has many ways of taking money out of the economy. I think without gilsellers it would have just been like it was before the NA release except slightly inflated seens as more players = more demand but it wouldnt be anything like it is now.

[Lilani]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

If the money wasn't going to those who sell gil, it would just be going to someone else. Prices are going to go up over time in this game period, because as I explained earlier, there is nothing substantial occuring to remove gil from the economy. What you saw on christmas was prices spiking because supply could not meet demand. Overall there would be a price increase, however it was more noticable and severe then before. You had a bunch of new millionaires in town, and there was all of a sudden a rush on luxury goods. And, as it is well established that America is an "instant gratification" culture (proven by the nation's rising average credit card debt), prices shot up out of control because only so many damascene ingots and venemous claws can be obtained so fast. And, since people on a whole tend to be greedy...

Yes, gil is always coming in. However, normally it would come in a little at a time. The gilsellers release gil in chunks of 20-100 million, and to many different players. Please, tell me how that doesn't affect prices in at least the tiniest way. And, just how does Christmas affect the supply and demand of items? Do you not find it the least bit interesting that the gilsellers had a sale during the Christmas season, and nearly all of the server's gil they had to sell was sold out? Please, tell me how you think that that doesn't affect the economy.

And what the hell is with your comparison on millionaires in America? I cannot see a point in what you are saying there at all. Are the millionaires the gilbuyers or what? Make a little sense please, and please use the return button when you are starting a new point.

It is not overpricing the item. It is listing something for what people are WILLING to pay. If you're the only one who has something and know you can milk it for everything it's worth, you will. It's simply called greed.

Actually, I don't sell things for more than the price history. I sometimes want to, but I'm almost positive that it either won't sell or the price will go up. I know how it feels to have to pay way too much for something that you need to get at that time, and I know that it's what ails the economy. If you are willing to accept this and make it out as right then you are seriously messed up.

And what NM are you going after that they are competing with you to camp these days? I mean honestly, most of the old "high value" drops are Rare/Ex these days. Peacock amulet, Empress hairpin, bounding boots, you can get an Oz coffer in 5 minutes these days... About the only "campable" NPCs these days are the torrent and the O.kotes guy.

Yes, exactly. Thank you for proving my point. Now the gilsellers are piled up on Torrent and the O kote NM so it's harder than ever for fair players to get them for their own personal use or for sale.

Your logic is flawed. The same process would happen if the person bid 3,250,000 or 4 million, it's just starting at a slightly inflated number. The price on any given item will go up until the price stabilizes at a number where you can reach equilibrium, commonly known as (shocker), the equilibrium point! The point where enough people decide that the cost of said item is not worth possessing it.

That was not my point, you idiot. Did you read what I said properly? The person has a lot of gil on them, like in the 75 million reigon. Instead of paying 3,250,000 gil, which is what it is priced at point in time they pay 4 million out of pure laziness. If he had simply payed 3,250,000 like a person without 75 million gil, then the next person might have raised the price, but it wouldn't be so ungodly high in the first place.

The price of standard goods would remain fixed in this situation, however LUXURY goods (a.k.a "Crap you want but don't need, like a haubergeon or o. kotes") would probably go up given a suitably small sample size. If only half the people in your town got 1 billion dollars apiece, do you honestly think the price of a loaf of bread or a geo metro is going to change? No. Caviar, champaigne, BMWs, mansions, these prices are going to go up.

Do you honestly think that that money is going to stay in the upper classes? If so, then you should check out those links of yours again. Let's say that person overpays on a BMW, hell, 5 BMWs just because he wants a few mistresses. That money wouldn't just go to the CEO of BMW, it would go to the developers, designers, and eventually down to factory workers. If he overpays in a bunch of caviar the money would get spread down to the fisherman and people who work to get those eggs. Money from building the mansion would work itself down to suppliers and builders.

You are simply refusing to accept the fact that inflation is also being affected by other things. You remind me of those people who refuse to accept the fact that man has been on the moon, or that the world is spherical. Come on, think a little. Yeah inflation is normal, but it's obvious that there are other things at play if scorpion harnesses are selling for 30 million gil.

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

I think I should draw up a map or something. It would probably help with the analogy. To anyone else who gets it, I think it's understandable. Just don't try to read into it too hard.

Gil = Water

Player Base (Not including gilsellers) = Lower Level of the Lake.

Reservoir = Gilsellers only.

I get what you're trying to say, but the simple fact is there is not enough taking money out of the economy as there is money flowing into the economy. If I start taking water out your lake a cupful at a time, I don't think the flood (that would exist with or without the damn dam ever being created) is going to go away.

This is why I hate analogies. They're an attempt to take a situation that is not simple and dumb it down to make a debate seem "concise".

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Oh, you mean the thing this game doesn't have, which is like my entire point?

Chocobos, outpost warps, dynamis, subligar. There's a few. Most of them aren't noteable granted, like chocobos, but they're there.

[Rodin]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Chocobos, outpost warps, dynamis, subligar. There's a few. Most of them aren't noteable granted, like chocobos, but they're there.

ROFL, Subligar is one of the biggest gil sinks I've ever seen. I know a LOT of BRDs who have spent gil on those just to get a manteel.

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

I am not trying to debate whether they are or are not there. I am debating that they are insufficient to handle the OVERWHELMING amount of gil in the economy, whether on gilseller mules or held by actual players. When square bans like 200, 300 accounts (or however many they banned last time), and takes 300 BILLION gil out of the economy, there's a problem.. and since it's analogy day, it's like going to the doctor cause your arm is broken and having them give you a shot of morphine and sending you home. Sure, your arm isn't going to hurt for a while, but your arm is still broken.

And for clarification, your broken arm is "too much gil exists" the morphine is "banning a few accounts"

[Aeolus]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Getting guild points also takes money out of the economy. You could have sold the items your trading in for a profit.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

and takes 300 BILLION gil out of the economy, there's a problem..

Yes, the problem was that a few groups of gilsellers figured out "illicit means" to generate gil.

That is, they used an exploit in the game that allowed for multiple crafting attempts to be made with the same ingredients. They would then turn around and sell the items on the AH to generate gil.

This was particularly common with ninja tools (which consequently fell up to 75% on my server after the 300billion was removed).

In short, they were duping items.

The didn't give the problem morphine. They gave it a firggin' cast, and the arm is healed. I know some people don't think that SE does anything when they say, "we put in a patch but we won't tell you what it is because we don't want people to know how we're catching them cheating," but this is the sort of thing that gets fixed in these "secret" patches.

Anyhow, poke around some forums. Get in touch with some hack users. You'd be surprised what you can learn about the sort of things you can do... and -used- to be able to do.

[Taiko]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Way of MPK is to use NM's, as they won't despawn.

I've noticed our Tarutaru BLM and SMN have been leveling through Yhoator Jungle for a while. I've taken Woodland Sage and Bisque-Heeled Sunberry from their respective places, and dropped them onto their parties.

MPK is still do-able. Just more difficult.

Not that I'm a serial MPKer or anything

[Tirrock]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Okay...I honestly stopped reading a lot of this at about post 29 or 30... but I have to point this out:

But I'm going to be very blunt: People buying and selling gil do not change your play experience at all.

Go camp Novv for a minstrel's coat. Go camp <insert NM here>. You even contridicted yourself in your own post there... Calling it a "ShinyNewToy+1" doesn't change the fact that it does effect people. How we make money, how we spend money.

[Caspian]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Okay...I honestly stopped reading a lot of this at about post 29 or 30... but I have to point this out:


Go camp Novv for a minstrel's coat. Go camp <insert NM here>. You even contridicted yourself in your own post there... Calling it a "ShinyNewToy+1" doesn't change the fact that it does effect people. How we make money, how we spend money.

I think he was quoting some guy who used to post on Alla, not stating his own views.

And Lilani, stop it with the calling of idiots.

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Nah I was stating my opinions for the most part... I can't stand camping NMs, it drives me nuts. I have never considered camping the Minstrel's Coat myself, simply because I can't stand playing bard overall, it's just too passive of a job for me. And I still don't really agree Tir, because even if the "gilsellers" weren't doing it, it still drops sirens hair, so someone else would still be down there anyway. So ultimately, one way or another someone is gonna be camping it to sell the item.

Which is basically the point I was making with that statement. Whether it's a gilseller or a standard player, every NM is going to be camped, whether it is someone legitimately looking for the item, or someone looking to get it to sell to buy something else. And while I will certainly admit there's a higher amount of cheating and third party programs amongst that group of people, there's plenty of that going around in the standard playerbase. All you have to do is watch people at king behemoth and you better believe that sooner or later someone's head is gonna start spinning around like they're on a bad crack binge for a few seconds.

I mean, just look at the evidence.. Leaping lizard - drops a rare/ex item. still basically camped round the clock. Emperor, camped round the clock. Argus... well, camped every once around the clock or so There's no profit in any of these items save having it for your character, and there's still enough people who need it to make 'em camped basically all the time.

I don't like camping anything, personally. To me it's a waste of time. To sit in some place for 2-5 to have a chance at killing something that has a chance of dropping an item... {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

If I want an item, I'm just going to go farm beehive chips or sell teleports in lower jeuno...

[Aeolus]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

The point tho is that if the gilsellers wernt there someone else would be yes But they wouldnt be monopolising the market like the gilsellers do. They bot and hack etc so they get all the drops and therefore can control the market. If they hold off selling, the prices will go up. If they own all the drops the prices will remain constant. It will only go down when others are selling the drops they already own and undercut the gilsellers who retaliate by undercutting again. If they wernt there then these other people camping it would either sell it for slightly more if there wernt many for sale and it would rise and fall over time but nothing drastic as one player alone cant get all the drops and keep them all from the AH till they can raise the price by 10million. It takes a group of people who are willing to exploit the game and run the risk of getting banned. You would never find this if it wernt for gilsellers. You might get it on HNMs but certainly not on normal NMs. So without the gilsellers the economy would still fluxuate but just not quite as extremely as it does these days.