Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

[Raydeus]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Maybe if S.E inforced the rules players who sold accounts on ebay would wake up the next morning to an account perma banned. because these players show names an servers, all S.E has to do is go browse for 10 mins an close down accounts,

And what happens when someone who doesn't like you offers your account for sale just to get you permabanned? There's no way for SE to confirm if the actual owner of the account is really selling it, to do that they would have to pay for it to get the ID and password, which would make everything pointless.

The only way to stop gilsellers is not buying from them, but since there are a lot of stupid and lazy players (and I mean A LOT) I don't think it'll end anytime soon.

[Xyphere]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

You know, if SE just banned every group of anon players who are always online 24/7 and have obscure names like Lsyjack, etc... we wouldn't have a problem. I mean come on, anyone can spot a RMT without even trying.. just go to Lower Jueno and look at all the characters with no/ LV1 equips and are anon and have those dumbass names...

[Rodin]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

IMO, SE should redefine the definition of RMT to include people who outright help RMTers. This should be an insta-ban.

I remember Ardagarda was the cause of all of this on Ragnarok. He/She/It taught the gilsellers how to get sky, how to kill gods, how to do genkais, how to camp NMs (I.E. Amemet). This person is gone now, but I believe those actions are cause for a ban.

Now, thanks to this person, all RMT have sky, are 75, killing Gods, killing HNMs, etc....

BTW, I think SE needs to hire GMs to deal solely with RMT. That site is stupid, they said to meet at a certain NPC. Now, to ban the mule account, all you have to do is look around for the person who is standing at the NPC for long periods of time. Then, you check their histories. See what they're saying to people, like "Here is your order." GMs need to be able to check trades and such. If this mule is just giving out millions of gil at a time to random people, then I think they should be banned, and whoever is buying the gil should be banned.

[Ryouken]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

As long as there are ass***s like EondarkCaitsith around, gilselling and buying will continue(Just for reference: he on alla openly admitted to gilbuying, and felt completely justified doing it)

lol, I remember that guy!

The jerk kept saying how it's alright since the game is meant for your "personal" enjoyment and not other players. Even worse were the ppl who agreed with that noob, saying that he's totally entitled to do that sorta thing (so it was obvious that they bought gil too).

That whole rant occured on his thread "I support gilselling", the biggest flame thread ever created on Alla! And I'll say to you what I said to Eon about my stand on gilselling:

Gilselling/Gilbuying is nothing more than a cheatcode (a very lame, cheapa$$ cheatcode) that players use because their to lazy to earn their own gil, which would only take maybe a few hours or so if you were really committed to it (I was able to make 20k in one hour!). The ppl who use this code are noobs and have no respect for the game and the other players who it effects!

Sadly, gilbuying will not be easy to get rid of. It's basically like cocaine or weed, it may be called illegal and their may be laws against, but no matter what you do, ppl will still find a way to get it...

I agree that they should make a branch of [GM]s whose job are solely to hunt track and hunt down gilsellers/gilbuyers, but to do that you would have to find [GM]s who would be totally dedicated to the job and not slack off

[Moaku Hyena]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Hell, I'd be happy to be a [GM] just to attack RMTs.
Of course, I'd have fun by feeding them to dragons first. ;3

And I'm not curious to see the guy who openly admitted to Gilbuying. ;3

[Ryouken]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Hell, I'd be happy to be a [GM] just to attack RMTs.
Of course, I'd have fun by feeding them to dragons first. ;3

And I'm not curious to see the guy who openly admitted to Gilbuying. ;3

Well if you ever get curious

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10;mid=1146852087111463308;page=2


It starts on the second page of the thread (I chose it since it has some posts from me and some from MisterCookie), but feel free to look at the rest of the thread, some of it is actually pretty funny.

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

At times I get tired of the ignorance on this matter. They (the gilsellers) are NOT responsible for high auction house prices. They (may) are (be) responsible for not being able to go kill that NM to get your ShinyNewToy +1, however. The following things are responsible for high auction house prices:

1) At no point in this game is gil taken out of the economy at a reasonable rate. Chocobos and Auction House Fees do a little bit, but not much. Square needs to add more "Gil Sinks". Make it so you can buy sushi/food for vendors. Up the cost for boat/airship rides. MAKE THE STUPID TELE-TARU CHARGE <- There you go. I bet if he charged 1,000g a trip people would drop it without a thought and you'd take at LEAST 1-2 million gil out of the economy A DAY.

It's called inflation. As more and more money enters the economy and less and less leaves, it causes your money to be worth less. This was illustrated back during christmas. A bunch of gilselling companies who had been holding back large sums of money suddenly released it, causing inflation to go way up. In related news, did you know that if De Beers released it's supply of diamonds into the marketplace, they'd be worth about 100 bucks a carat tops?

Ultimately, though, here's the deal: That money was ALWAYS there. Always. It's just that by holding onto it they were actually keeping inflation down. Yeah, that's right, the gilsellers you so despise were actually keeping auction house prices down

2) Remember those 3 days back when COP first came out when you could buy an item from an NPC and sell it back to the same NPC for 10-100k profit? Oh yes, CLEARLY that is not responsible for an overabundance of gil in the economy to this day.

I'm not a huge fan of people buying and selling gil, it just kinda ruins the spirit of the game (plus it's easy to make 100-200k a day just capitalizing on people's raw stupidity at the Auction House). But I'm going to be very blunt: People buying and selling gil do not change your play experience at all. As long as they can make money doing it, there will always be gilsellers. And as long as it takes less time to go pull a few OT hours at work and buy it, there will always be a large market of willing buyers.

[Rodin]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Okay, you're wrong for this reason.

The gilselling mules are holding the gil. Now, what's happening is the gilsellers are taking money and keeping it on mules until somebody buys it. When MANY people buy LARGE amounts of gil, you will get what happened last Christmas. If you dump millions of gil into the economy, that weren't circulating, you'll get huge amounts of inflation. Gilsellers and Gilbuyers DO affect your gameplay experience.

[Lilani]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Gilsellers ruin the economy in multiple ways. I'll go in order:

1. They have to get the gil. Now, how does one get a lot of gil very quickly and easily in Final Fantasy XI? Camping notorious monsters is the best way. So, they send out a few of their cronies to a NM campsite, put one or a few at each possible spawn area, and wait. When the NM pops they pounce on it, and kill it. If the item drops, they then sell it on the AH. Of course, gilsellers don't give a crap about the other players who are actually BUYING the item, so they sponge all of the gil they can out of the item, which ultimately results in the overpricing of the item. Soon enough, an item that once sold for 1 million gil is now 20 million gil. Who in their right mind would ever pay 20 million gil for a rare item? A gilbuyer perhaps?

2. Anyway, then there's step 2 (which I sort of got into in step 1). After selling many items in this manner, the gilseller eventually has a lot of gil in their hands. They then get a list of customers who ordered gil, and distribute it. One player recieving millions upon millions of gil at once. I like to compare this stage to a 6 year old who just recieved 5 million dollars in Toys R Us store credit. Do you think this kid will care how much he pays for a toy? No, he's got plenty to spare.

Now, do you think a player who just recieved 50 million gil is going to care how much they pay for an item? No. Let's say they want to buy a Haubergeon. It's been going for 3,250,000 gil for a while now. Player thinks "Hmm, do I want to fill out all those silly numbers? Nah, I'll just pay 4 mil and get on with it." So he pays 4 million gil for the item, and it just so happens to be the last one in stock. Next person who wants to sell a Hauby looks at the price history and thinks "Whoa, 4 mil?! No others selling, man, I'll charge 4.2 mil!" And so the cycle goes on, and eventually the price of a Hauby is 30 mil, and normal players are screwed out of a Haubergeon, while gilbuyers can easily get them.

3. Step three is basically a summary of step two. What do you think would happen if 100 billion dollars were to suddenly be flooded into the economy? And I'm not talking equally distributed, I'm talking about 100 people out of the whole United States getting 100 billion dollars, 1 billion per person. And, no taxes. Would that person do any better than the six year old at Toys R Us? No, in fact, he'd do worse. Eventually this money gets spread into the economy, and prices are driven up because, all of the sudden, there's a lot more money in the economy. In other words, more money people can spend on things. Can the average person who didn't get any of this money pay for his food now? No. Is this fair? You decide.

Same thing happens in FFXI. And we could say it's the gilbuyer's fault, and it is. Some if it anyway. The main people we should blame are the ones supplying them in the first place.

That's my two gil (excuse the pun).

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Okay, you're wrong for this reason.

The gilselling mules are holding the gil. Now, what's happening is the gilsellers are taking money and keeping it on mules until somebody buys it. When MANY people buy LARGE amounts of gil, you will get what happened last Christmas. If you dump millions of gil into the economy, that weren't circulating, you'll get huge amounts of inflation. Gilsellers and Gilbuyers DO affect your gameplay experience.

If the money wasn't going to those who sell gil, it would just be going to someone else. Prices are going to go up over time in this game period, because as I explained earlier, there is nothing substantial occuring to remove gil from the economy. What you saw on christmas was prices spiking because supply could not meet demand. Overall there would be a price increase, however it was more noticable and severe then before. You had a bunch of new millionaires in town, and there was all of a sudden a rush on luxury goods. And, as it is well established that America is an "instant gratification" culture (proven by the nation's rising average credit card debt), prices shot up out of control because only so many damascene ingots and venemous claws can be obtained so fast. And, since people on a whole tend to be greedy...

1. They have to get the gil. Now, how does one get a lot of gil very quickly and easily in Final Fantasy XI? Camping notorious monsters is the best way. So, they send out a few of their cronies to a NM campsite, put one or a few at each possible spawn area, and wait. When the NM pops they pounce on it, and kill it. If the item drops, they then sell it on the AH. Of course, gilsellers don't give a crap about the other players who are actually BUYING the item, so they sponge all of the gil they can out of the item, which ultimately results in the overpricing of the item. Soon enough, an item that once sold for 1 million gil is now 20 million gil. Who in their right mind would ever pay 20 million gil for a rare item? A gilbuyer perhaps?

It is not overpricing the item. It is listing something for what people are WILLING to pay. If you're the only one who has something and know you can milk it for everything it's worth, you will. It's simply called greed.

And what NM are you going after that they are competing with you to camp these days? I mean honestly, most of the old "high value" drops are Rare/Ex these days. Peacock amulet, Empress hairpin, bounding boots, you can get an Oz coffer in 5 minutes these days... About the only "campable" NPCs these days are the torrent and the O.kotes guy.

Now, do you think a player who just recieved 50 million gil is going to care how much they pay for an item? No. Let's say they want to buy a Haubergeon. It's been going for 3,250,000 gil for a while now. Player thinks "Hmm, do I want to fill out all those silly numbers? Nah, I'll just pay 4 mil and get on with it." So he pays 4 million gil for the item, and it just so happens to be the last one in stock. Next person who wants to sell a Hauby looks at the price history and thinks "Whoa, 4 mil?! No others selling, man, I'll charge 4.2 mil!" And so the cycle goes on, and eventually the price of a Hauby is 30 mil, and normal players are screwed out of a Haubergeon, while gilbuyers can easily get them.

Your logic is flawed. The same process would happen if the person bid 3,250,000 or 4 million, it's just starting at a slightly inflated number. The price on any given item will go up until the price stabilizes at a number where you can reach equilibrium, commonly known as (shocker), the equilibrium point! The point where enough people decide that the cost of said item is not worth possessing it.

Theory of Supply and Demand
Elasticity

On a side note, your last sentence only reinforces what I'm saying about inflation in this game. 1.5 years ago when I last quit, if someone had said that 3.25 million gil was in reach of a "normal" player, you'd have been laughed out of town. There was a day where utsusemi:ichi scrolls sold for 100k and that was EXPENSIVE. These days they're 1.6 million, and people don't really even blink. I'm just glad that when I quit, I had almost all my gil invested in ITEMS, and not liquid cash, because if not I would be completely screwed.

3. Step three is basically a summary of step two. What do you think would happen if 100 billion dollars were to suddenly be flooded into the economy? And I'm not talking equally distributed, I'm talking about 100 people out of the whole United States getting 100 billion dollars, 1 billion per person. And, no taxes. Would that person do any better than the six year old at Toys R Us? No, in fact, he'd do worse. Eventually this money gets spread into the economy, and prices are driven up because, all of the sudden, there's a lot more money in the economy. In other words, more money people can spend on things. Can the average person who didn't get any of this money pay for his food now? No. Is this fair? You decide.

The price of standard goods would remain fixed in this situation, however LUXURY goods (a.k.a "Crap you want but don't need, like a haubergeon or o. kotes") would probably go up given a suitably small sample size. If only half the people in your town got 1 billion dollars apiece, do you honestly think the price of a loaf of bread or a geo metro is going to change? No. Caviar, champaigne, BMWs, mansions, these prices are going to go up.

[Rodin]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

If the money wasn't going to those who sell gil, it would just be going to someone else. Prices are going to go up over time in this game period, because as I explained earlier, there is nothing substantial occuring to remove gil from the economy. What you saw on christmas was prices spiking because supply could not meet demand. Overall there would be a price increase, however it was more noticable and severe then before. You had a bunch of new millionaires in town, and there was all of a sudden a rush on luxury goods. And, as it is well established that America is an "instant gratification" culture (proven by the nation's rising average credit card debt), prices shot up out of control because only so many damascene ingots and venemous claws can be obtained so fast. And, since people on a whole tend to be greedy...

The reasons suppy could not meet demand, was because gilbuyers got a hold of a lot of money, and started upgrading.

Let me explain it like this:

Pretend gil is water. And the servers entire gil is a lake.

Now, pretend the gilsellers are a reservoir, and the dam is the gilsellers holding gil on their accounts.

NOW...We know how this works, the dam will keep holding back gil. The part of the lake behind the wall fills up to the top of the dam.

Now, let's say that there's too much water (gil) to hold back, now, what do you have to do? You have to relieve the pressure (IGE's Xmas sale).

This "opened the flood gates". What happens when the flood gates open on a dam? The water level in in the lower part of the lake (This part being the shallower part of the lake, which represents total player gil) will rise extremely rapidly (inflation).

BUT, if the dam was never put there in the first place, the water level would have been constant throughout the lake.

That's going to be the analogy I'm going to use for gilsellers.

I'm not saying there wouldn't have been infaltion, what I'm saying is that it wouldn't have been as rapid as it has been these past 2 years. Gilsellers are a problem to the economy, whether you believe so or not. If the gilsellers didn't exist, there wouldn't be as much money, because there would be that many less people farming. (There's hundreds of gilsellers on each server....) Also, if a legitimate player ended up getting the items, he'd have most likely kept the money in circulation, rather than have kept it on a mule for God knows how long.

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

The reasons suppy could not meet demand, was because gilbuyers got a hold of a lot of money, and started upgrading.

Let me explain it like this:

Pretend gil is water. And the servers entire gil is a lake.

Now, pretend the gilsellers are a reservoir, and the dam is the gilsellers having gil on their accounts.

NOW...We know how this works, the dam will keep holding back gil. The part of the lake behind the wall fills up to the top of the dam.

Now, let's say that there's too much water (gil) to hold back, now, what do you have to do? You have to relieve the pressure (IGE's Xmas sale).

This "opened the flood gates". What happens when the flood gates open on a dam? The water level in one part of the lake (This part being the shallower part of the lake, which represents total player gil) will rise extremely rapidly (inflation).

BUT, if the dam was never put there in the first place, the water level would have been constant throughout the lake.

That's going to be the analogy I'm going to use for gilsellers.

Ok, now lets pretend they never built the dam in the first place.

The amount of water is still the same, it would have just overflowed the lake slower. Slow, fast, the water level's still the same.

And the part about the "shallower area being the player's total gil" makes no sense. "All the server's gil" is owned by players. It is not possible to have gil on the server that isn't owned by someone.

[Rodin]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Ok, now lets pretend they never built the dam in the first place.

The amount of water is still the same, it would have just overflowed the lake slower. Slow, fast, the water level's still the same.

Not if the lake feeds into a tributary (gil-sinks.) It might raise slowly, but it would be so slow the effects would be negligible.

[Atma]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

Not if the lake feeds into a tributary (gil-sinks.) It might raise slowly, but it would be so slow the effects would be negligible.

Oh, you mean the thing this game doesn't have, which is like my entire point?

[Rodin]

Re: Oh my god. Will they (The Gilsellers) EVER give up?

And the part about the "shallower area being the player's total gil" makes no sense. "All the server's gil" is owned by players.

The shallow level = Gil belonging to non-gilsellers.

Double Post Edited:

Oh, you mean the thing this game doesn't have, which is like my entire point?

If you don't think this game has gil sinks, then you need to do more research. Dynamis and Limbus alone are huge gil sinks. Especially for the average player who doesn't farm every day. How many chocobos do you take every day? How many chocobos do you think everyone else uses? How many people do you think powerlevel crafts buy buying cheaper items from the guild? This all adds up.