questson about the "Windower"

[Balfree]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

That and they much rather sell you a recipe guide instead of having you suddenly find the recipes on some site...

So its nothing of their concern :p

[Liquidedust]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

Just because some things make your life easier, doesnt mean by a long shot that they should be officially implemented.

If I remember correctly, being unable to alt-tab was done on purpose to keep the gaming experience (if I remember rightly) as close to the PS2 version as possible - dont diss the game because it doesnt suit your needs out the box, some of the downpoints are there for a reason.

Sony actually more or less forced Squaresoft (S-E didn't exist then) to not have an Alt-Tabble function in the PC version to prevent people from getting the PC version instead of the PS2 version due to the "extra functionailty" it could give a PC-user over the PS2-user.

Basically a buissness choice to keep Sony happy. Then of course later on Sony decided to drop all support for the PS2 HDD as well as not even releasing it in EU and bite S-E (which now had formed) in their ass.

So alt-tabbing per se doesn't really matter anymore, it is just an old relic from a buissness decision Squaresoft and Sony made togather. Just give me a windowed mode for my PC version already it is long overdue.

[Ziero]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

Yes, the windower is officially against the rules. Personally though, I don't see the windower itself as a problem. The plug ins however can be. Which is why I don't use any, not even the TPparty one. >_>

[AngryUndead]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

If I remember correctly, being unable to alt-tab was done on purpose to keep the gaming experience (if I remember rightly) as close to the PS2 version as possible - dont diss the game because it doesnt suit your needs out the box, some of the downpoints are there for a reason.

Sounds like a cop-out to me. From a developer standpoint I know that it was easier to just drop the game than worry about resizing it, and they were probably in a time crunch.

In my opinion, they shouldn't have focused on keeping it similar to the PS2 because it has pretty much screwed them over. It forced the design of the Xbox360 and PC to be extremly limited in capability compared to what it could be. I refuse to justify the mistakes that they've made by saying they were in the intrests of keeping the gameplay similar. They deliberatly chose to do them the easy way.

And besides, if you change the channel while using the PS2, the PS2 doesn't know you did that. It doesn't freak out. I should at least be able to minimize the game.

It could be improved, it needs to be improved, and they refuse to improve it. I'm almost 100% positive that if they asked the creator for the windower to make a no-plugin version for distribution then he would say yes. They could probably do it themselves in a few days.

[Liquidedust]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

Sounds like a cop-out to me. From a developer standpoint I know that it was easier to just drop the game than worry about resizing it, and they were probably in a time crunch.

In my opinion, they shouldn't have focused on keeping it similar to the PS2 because it has pretty much screwed them over. It forced the design of the Xbox360 and PC to be extremly limited in capability compared to what it could be. I refuse to justify the mistakes that they've made by saying they were in the intrests of keeping the gameplay similar. They deliberatly chose to do them the easy way.

And besides, if you change the channel while using the PS2, the PS2 doesn't know you did that. It doesn't freak out. I should at least be able to minimize the game.

It could be improved, it needs to be improved, and they refuse to improve it. I'm almost 100% positive that if they asked the creator for the windower to make a no-plugin version for distribution then he would say yes. They could probably do it themselves in a few days.

The problem with the non-windowable application, in Windows you have to add extra code in order for an application to shut down itself (e.g. you have to make an exception in DirectX calls). So they had to go out of their way to actually create this code when they made the PC version of this game.

Personally it feels more like they are just stubborn and refuse to give in to a public user demand, since just removing that DirectX call isn't usually that hard per se (if you write your own applications for Windows)

[Taskmage]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

About those keyboards, even though it's not covered in the EULA, it's still cheating just as surely as using a turbo controller on the old Mortal Kombat test your might challenges. The hardware plays part of the game for you. I don't support that. And, as someone else posted earlier, if you use something like that to play while afk and a GM actually checks on you, you're still likely going to get banned for botting.

I saw something way back before fishing changed where somebody made a "bot" out of Lego Technix that would lower itself on to his keyboard every several seconds and hit his macro and catch buttons for him. I'm pretty sure he got banned too. ^^

[AngryUndead]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

The problem with the non-windowable application, in Windows you have to add extra code in order for an application to shut down itself (e.g. you have to make an exception in DirectX calls). So they had to go out of their way to actually create this code when they made the PC version of this game.

Personally it feels more like they are just stubborn and refuse to give in to a public user demand, since just removing that DirectX call isn't usually that hard per se (if you write your own applications for Windows)

Well right now, on the window events HWND_ (blah blah) Resize, LoseFullScreen, Minimize, and whatever else the FFXI app throws an exception that gets caught in a manner that gets you the POL error. Easy. Event handling code like that is pretty standard in any app that uses a "window"... even if that "window" is full screen. There are other events that need to be handled. If they wanted to do somthing other than just throw an error, they'd actually need to write code. Personally I'd rather have third-party people doing this while the SE developers add on to the game, but thats me.

About those keyboards, even though it's not covered in the EULA, it's still cheating just as surely as using a turbo controller on the old Mortal Kombat test your might challenges. The hardware plays part of the game for you. I don't support that. And, as someone else posted earlier, if you use something like that to play while afk and a GM actually checks on you, you're still likely going to get banned for botting.

I saw something way back before fishing changed where somebody made a "bot" out of Lego Technix that would lower itself on to his keyboard every several seconds and hit his macro and catch buttons for him. I'm pretty sure he got banned too. ^^

For one thing, I don't know how you could get the controller/keyboard to play while you're AFK. For another, I'm pretty sure that SE is cool with any bot that meets two criteria: that you sit at the keyboard, and it operates within the confines of the game (no memory edits, packet sniffing, magic, virgin sacrafices). As for controllers like the Nostromo... all of the "Game Playing" it does for you is maybe hit the ALT or CTRL button for you. I'm pretty sure those are okay. But... IANAE (I Am Not An Expert).

Edit: I'm not supporting bots, but the above is what I've seen, heard, and observed from different sources.

[Taskmage]

Re: questson about the "Windower"

I'm not really familiar with the functions of the keyboards mentioned, but this is what I'm talking about:

I can make progammable macros with basically unlimited lines through a windower that creates a looping SMN skillup macro.
<< this is considered to beagainst the rules. >>

I can make program my Logitech® G15 Gaming Keyboard to exactly the same and get a looping SMN skillup macro.
<< this is considered to be within the rules and this keyboard is even supported by S-E as a good gaming accessory. >>

If you can use the keyboard to create a looping macro that will continually perform game actions without further input from the player, then in my book you're cheating even if SE is ok with it. If you're sitting at the keyboard while your script is plugging away then you're likely never going to get caught, but if you were still going to sit there a watch the boring process of resummoning avatars or whatever then that takes away most of the point of scripting it.

[Liquidedust]

Re: questson about the &quot;Windower&quot;

I'm not really familiar with the functions of the keyboards mentioned, but this is what I'm talking about:If you can use the keyboard to create a looping macro that will continually perform game actions without further input from the player, then in my book you're cheating even if SE is ok with it. If you're sitting at the keyboard while your script is plugging away then you're likely never going to get caught, but if you were still going to sit there a watch the boring process of resummoning avatars or whatever then that takes away most of the point of scripting it.

Yeah according to terms of service "unattended play" us an offense either way, and while you can automate something doesn't mean you should since there is no point in it (You still have to be present at the computer).

I can see someone automatic SMN skillups, as the example I used to illustrate the point, to save you from the monotonous excersise of repeting the same keystrokes over and over though. But play still have to be attended .

And just to make a few things clear before someone misunderstands me:

• I am against botting and hacking in FFXI
• I am not against windower in its most simple state (e.g. no extra plug-ins or add-ons)
  
  
• I really want S-E to give me an officially endorsed windowed mode, preferably yesterday
  
  

[AngryUndead]

Re: questson about the &quot;Windower&quot;

If you can use the keyboard to create a looping macro that will continually perform game actions without further input from the player, then in my book you're cheating even if SE is ok with it. If you're sitting at the keyboard while your script is plugging away then you're likely never going to get caught, but if you were still going to sit there a watch the boring process of resummoning avatars or whatever then that takes away most of the point of scripting it.

I agree, that it shouldn't be allowed even if you're present. But you can always sit at the keyboard and read. I also missed the part about the Logitech G15, my pardon.

[Maju]

Re: questson about the &quot;Windower&quot;

Just because some things make your life easier, doesnt mean by a long shot that they should be officially implemented.

If I remember correctly, being unable to alt-tab was done on purpose to keep the gaming experience (if I remember rightly) as close to the PS2 version as possible - dont diss the game because it doesnt suit your needs out the box, some of the downpoints are there for a reason.

1. I guess you'd be ok if we couldn't see our party member's hp and mp either since we can just keep spamming hp and mp macros. Oh and how about we remove maps from the game? After all, they're pointless features that make the game easier and not one bit more fun.

2. No, it was SE's pathetic attempt at trying to prevent cheating.

[Kailea]

Re: questson about the &quot;Windower&quot;

1. I guess you'd be ok if we couldn't see our party member's hp and mp either since we can just keep spamming hp and mp macros. Oh and how about we remove maps from the game? After all, they're pointless features that make the game easier and not one bit more fun.

2. No, it was SE's pathetic attempt at trying to prevent cheating.

no it WAS to make it more like PS2, they said it themselves............

[Jei]

Re: questson about the &quot;Windower&quot;

well, it's S-E's design desicion. What they want us to see, and what they don't. Doesn't matter if the informations are there or not.

[forster]

Re: questson about the &quot;Windower&quot;

1. I guess you'd be ok if we couldn't see our party member's hp and mp either since we can just keep spamming hp and mp macros. Oh and how about we remove maps from the game? After all, they're pointless features that make the game easier and not one bit more fun.

2. No, it was SE's pathetic attempt at trying to prevent cheating.

Really, less coffee.

1. Thats just silly, no obviously I wouldnt be OK with it, I think you are just being obtuse here.

2. As above, really, it was to do with the PS2 version.