The Third Party [A Discussion]

[Taskmage]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

So as far as the ToS is concerned, it's not first-person (me, SE), second-person (you, the end user) and third-person (some other guy, not SE or the end user), it's first-party (me, SE), second-party (someone directly affiliated with SE), and third-party (someone not affiliated with SE). Making the end user still third-party. Here's your cookie.

Techinically if an SE employee or someone directly affiliated with them or some way made such a program, then it would not count as third party software. Then again, if you used such a program and then proved to them that it wasn't really third party, I have a feeling the person who wrote the program would become third party in short order.

[Taodyn]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Very nicely said, but, if I may ask, how exactly can the user be considered both the Second Party and the Third Party?

The "Party" terminology was designed to remove ambiguous name/gender associations from legal wordings. As a person entering into a contract you have to be either the First or Second Party, and a Third Party must be defined as a person outside the agreement altogether.

Anyone with a fostered interest in the agreement must be either the First or Second Party. Anyone who acts from outside the agreement (or an agent of that person) would be deemed Third Party.

As the user is directl associated with the agreement, itself, they cannot act from outside the agreement.

[Hamlet]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

I think 3rd party means anything running in conjunction with and affecting the game. It doesn't matter if you developed it or not. There's the game, you, and if anything is added to the equation, it's 3rd party.

[Murphie]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Maybe the program itself can be deemed the third party? Just a stab in the dark.

[Taskmage]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

I... eh... umm... I don't know. ><

However any good EULA would preclude the end user from fiddling with the code or content of the game in any way, so if the FFXI ToS does that (think it does, hate digging through legalese though) then it would be something of a challenge to make the hypothetically legal second party program without breaking the terms of the agreement in some other way.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

I thought "third-party" just meant "not related" to S/E or POL or FFXI. Kind of like some mods for your car, they weren't indigenous to your vehicle nor does your vehicle manufacturer support them, but they can improve and/or hinder your car's performance in some way. (And are usually illegal, as well.) Anyway, that's how I understand it.

[Taodyn]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Sorry, guys. Saw a discussion on Third Party software and thought it would be a good place to get some opinions.

Yes, the ToS precludes a player from developing code that will affect gameplay in any way.

My question was what simply related to what can be concretely defined as third party.

Contract law defines third party as "Someone other than the principals directly involved in a transaction or agreement."

As the user is one of the principals and is directly involved in the contract, you cannot be deemed a third party. Thus, any of your actions or creations cannot be deemed third party.

But, as I honestly doubt any of us having this discussion either:

a) can write such programs
b) would write such programs

the point is probably moot.

I really overthink things.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

After some digging, and a constant mentioning of a certain program, I found a link containing the MrArgus pack, which I promptly downloaded. I played around with it for awhile. I had some idea of what it did, as I had downloaded a copy when it was first revealed, along with the rest of the warp bots...

It'd be ironic if someone from the "other" board you left for moral reasons were to report you for ToS violations.

Yeah, the main reason I don't use them full time is because I like ffxi. If I ever decide to quit though, i'll probably abuse the hell out of them until i'm banned.

Now, where did I hear this recently? So, as long as you continue to enjoy the game you'll only use them part-time but when you've had enough you'll go all out to ruin the game for others. Or, am I missing the hidden message in there that portrays you as something other than a hypocrit?

[Taskmage]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Don't stir the pot, please. This thread has somehow managed to get this far in a mostly civil fashion. Let's try to keep it that way.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

It's a valid question Taskmage. Is it accepted by the FFXI population that minimal use of such programs is acceptable and that it's chipper to ruin the economy, HNM/NM claims, and other player's enjoyment if you decide you've had enough and want to go out with a bang... or at least until you're caught?

[Taodyn]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Questioning the morality of even using the programs sporadically is a valid point to make, but the tone of your post is much more aggressive than simple discussion.

While I understand some people get a little heated when discussing this topic, Feba has done nothing to warrant a lack of manners or civility.

[greydaze]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Feba, I'm sorry, but personally I'd have rather not known about this than to have everyone reading the forums know. For every 10 people who read this with disgust, 1-3 will think, "Wow, that would make getting gil so much easier!" A good portion of those will see the inviting evidence of ease of use, usefulness and unlikelihood of being caught. This may persuade quite a few new users of 3rd party programs.

A year and a half ago, everyone used windower. I didn't know people who didn't, because it was so helpful to be able to check on the web for things without closing FFXI. When I came back, I heard about crackdowns on windower users and didn't understand quite why. Now I see how vile these other 3rd party programs are and how negatively they affect gameplay for others.

To be fair, just for using it once you deserve any punishment that might be meted out to you by SE. And if you truly DO plan on going on the rampage when you get bored with the game, better sooner than later.

[Taskmage]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

No, I personally think that Feba's use of the programs even in the limited extent that he suggests is wrong, and probably most of the community feels the same way. I don't see any point in attacking him on that point, though; the arguement would accomplish nothing.

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

There is no "legimate" use of 3rd party programs and there's no way to redeem yourself for using it. You use a 3rd party program, no matter what the reason, it does not change the fact that you ARE using it - whether it be for "public awareness" or straight-up cheating or personal fun and interest. There are a lot of people who try to reason with themselves for using the programs with stuff like "to beat the gilsellers" and "everyone else uses it" or "i don't use it that much." You are still a cheater and that is the hard fact. Do I mean it in a bad way? Not at all, I personally really don't care if the person behind the PC cheats or not, but there is no "honest" or "right" way of using 3rd party programs. And yes, whether you use something simple and "harmless" like the windower or something more serious such as _______ (fill in the blank), you are still a cheater. If it's a third party program (and I can seriously say that third party meaning ANYTHING besides the program that SE provide you with and you as a human being playing it), it is a "cheat".

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Point taken Taskmage, I'll let it drop. I will add that it's refreshing to see from the subsequent posts that there are people still playing who despise these cheats/hacks as much as I do though. When it seems every third person is using them you tend to lose faith in fellow gamers fast.