The Third Party [A Discussion]

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

It is true that the heart of cheating does partially lie in its intent, there is a difference between those who cheat for personal gain and exploits and those who do it more "benevolent reasons." BUT as I've said before and will repeat, it still does not change the fact that it IS cheating and those who use these programs are still cheaters no matter what their purpose is. A person who has killed another unintentionally cannot say that they did not actually kill the person because they didnt mean to, since the fact still remains that they ended another person's life. Although they are not exactly associated with the smaller group of people who murder for pleasure, they still have murdered a person and can honestly be classified as a killer.

Using 3rd party programs is nonetheless breaking the official rules of FFXI set by SE, I think you would agree with me that if you were caught and banned you wouldn't argue that you didn't deserve it esp. since you are breaking the ToS and by doing so makes one a cheater.

[bungiefan]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

An interesting read, to say the last. Kind of scary, really.

I've been wondering recently: if you write a program to use, is it still considered third person?

While I would not be able to even begin programming anything like this, the term "third party software" suggests software made by neither SE (First party) or you (second party).

Theoretically (and don't test this unless you want to lose your account), a program you wrote yourself could not fall under "third party software."

1st party is made by the actual company. 2nd party is made by other people with permission from the 1st party. 3rd party is made by other people without permission from the first party.

SquareEnix is a 2nd party developer for the PS2, while Sony is a 1st party for the PS2. Companies like Blaze and Datel, which make unlicensed devices and software for the PS2, are 3rd parties.

[Feba]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

. A person who has killed another unintentionally cannot say that they did not actually kill the person because they didnt mean to, since the fact still remains that they ended another person's life.

But, I didn't kill anyone.


This is more like the difference between firing a gun and shooting someone than it is manslaughter or murder.

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

I made a mistake of using "murder" rather than killing somebody, since there's manslaughter and murder which differs in the intent of the person. I should've just used the word "kill" as it would apply to the situation w/o the use of intent. Anyways, I know you haven't killed anyone, but would you say that you did not cheat when you used these programs?

I'm not saying being a cheater is necessarily bad, I'd say using a Windower or .DAT swapping is cheating (are there different "levels" of cheating? certainly). Cheating is still cheating, using a 3rd party program is cheating. You can't use these programs and say: "No, I don't cheat" because in the cold hard truth - no matter what intent - you have broken the ToS, which is therefore cheating. Personally, I really don't care if people cheat. I just don't like the attitude when I hear people complain that they get banned because of ______ or ______ and blame SE for it or believe that they didn't deserve it and SE is the dumbest thing in the world, etc. when its blatantly stated in the ToS. And I know from what you've said that you're most likely not one of these kinds of people ^^

[Feba]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Cheating isn't really cheating unless you're doing it with the intention to get an advantage.


If you want to say I broke ToS, that's fine, but there's a difference between the word cheating and breaking rules.

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Then what would you call the programs that people use? Are they not hacks? Is not cheating simply to "violate the rules intentionally"?

[Illuen]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Feba, with all due respect, I must disagree with you. Cheating is cheating is cheating. To use an example, If I go 80MPH in a 60MPH zone to see if I will be arrested, regardless of whether I did it to get home an hour earlier or not, I still broke the law. You did the same. I respect what you did, because I feel that , not to use a cliche but, Knowledge is power. At the same time though, I would completely understand and agree with SE if they decided to ban you. You can be a good person and still cheat, just as you can be a bad person and be completely innocent.

[Omniblast]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Omni:

Actually, the section you posted makes no mention of third party software or affecting the gameplay of FFXI.

It does say "Interfering with or obstructing the operation of the PlayOnline Service," but that too can be misleading as the PlayOnline Service and FFXI are not the same.

As far as I know, there are no hacks or programs available to intefere with the Playonline Service. Even Windower doesn't influence the service as the PlayOnline Viewer is already windowed.

Once again you are wrong. Windower does interfere with the POL service. Infact, you'll notice the window name and icon are not SEI's POL viewer window, thus it has been "interfered with". Man I'm glad I don't have you as a lawyer, I'd lose everytime I went to court with you.

[Illuen]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Once again you are wrong. Windower does interfere with the POL service. Infact, you'll notice the window name and icon are not SEI's POL viewer window, thus it has been "interfered with". Man I'm glad I don't have you as a lawyer, I'd lose everytime I went to court with you.

A quick add on to this, It says POL services, not just the viewer. One of the services of POL (the main one, in fact) is FFXI, so it makes Taodyn's point not completely right.

[Taodyn]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Once again you are wrong. Windower does interfere with the POL service. Infact, you'll notice the window name and icon are not SEI's POL viewer window, thus it has been "interfered with". Man I'm glad I don't have you as a lawyer, I'd lose everytime I went to court with you.

Do you go to court often?

I will admit that I am not familiar with the working of the Windower as I have never tried it.

That being said, Windower was just mentioned as a common program people use that could be considered a violation of the ToS. It does not have bearing on our larger discussion of programs written by the player to only be used by that player.

You still have not shown any actual proof (save for some basic conjecture) that a player could ever be deemed a third party. Trying to redefine the term Third Party beyond what is accepted in contract law is trying to run around the argument.

Even the section of the ToS you posted does not actually bear on the conversation. The types of programs we are discussing (ie. MrArgus, FleeTool, etc, etc, etc) do not influence the PlayOnline Service, they influence FFXI only.

The manual even differentiates the two as it explains a subscription to the PlayOnline Service is free of charge, but a subscription to FFXI has a monthly fee.

Seriously, Omni, you need to bring your A game if you want to roll with me.

Edit: The ToS does not say PlayOnline Services. It says Service. The PlayOnline service, itself only refers to the Viewer and file management systems.

To prove this, you can actually uninstall FFXI, but leave POL running on your system.

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

wouldn't a program made a 2nd party instantly become a 3rd party program as it is no longer "you" or anything supported by the first party?

edit:
plus since ffxi cannot run w/o the pol service, i think it's part of it. and it wouldn't be the other way around, since pol doesn't require ffxi to run.

edit edit:
plus its called "PlayOnline Service" and not "PlayOnline service," so i'm guessing it just the name of everything together rather than a single thing.

[Taodyn]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

A program cannot be a party. A party has to be an individual.

A Third Party program is defined as a program written by a Third Party individual.

As the player is the Second Party, at no time does a program written by that player for use only by that player become Third Party.

SE would still have a field day banning your account, but I can tell you that my logic is sound here.

[Omniblast]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Contract Formation

• What is the subject matter of the contract?
  • The sale of goods
    • The sale of goods is the most non-technical among the subject matters. - NA
  • The sale of real property
    
    • The Sale of Real Property is the most technical among the subject matters. - NA
  • Personal Service
    
    • Square Enix, Inc will maintain that the use of such services is a personal service. The use of the said application POL & FFXI to connect to Square Enix, Inc's servers.
  • Note: Different rules apply depending upon the subject matter at various times when dealing with contract issues.
  • Note: Under the Statue of Frauds, certain contracts must be in writing.

• Analysis of the Offer
  • Was there present contractual intent?
    • Subjective Intent: What the promisor or promisee thought was intended.
      • Square Enix, Inc will maintain that the promisee thought the intend of the contract is to establish a "service" for the end user.
    • Objective Intent: What would a reasonable person in the shoes of the other party have believed the intent to be?
      
      • Square Enix will maintain that the use of their software and services will be used reasonable without modofication to their software and their code. The modification of their code and or any type of reverse engineering will result in a Breach of contract.
  • Was there definite and certain terms which were mutually agreed upon?
    
    • Agreement based on the POL's terms of service.
  • Basic Terms:
    
    • Subject matter
      • Use of Square Enix's Server and application to play a game called Final Fantasy XI.
    • Price terms
      
      • Pricing deemed at USD$12.99 for the purchase of 1 content ID, additional Content ID costs USD$1.00 each.
    • Performance terms
      
      • Square Enix Inc, will maintain that the use of their server is their performance of their end of the contract.
    • Delivery terms
      
      • The delivery system is the same throughout the use of the connection to the "Internet". Square Enix will maintain that the connection is due solely to the end user and that the Server maintained by Square Enix Inc, will be maintained by Square Enix Inc, and cannot be guaranteed as a basis for the performance of such said contract.
    • Parties
      
      • Square Enix, Inc will maintain that the use of such software in the contract defines such as to the end user and to Square Enix, Inc. Other such person or personel are considered Third Party.
  • Was the offer communicated?
    
    • Through the purchase of said software "Final Fantasy XI" and there by installing said software, the User is bound to the agreements set forth by Square Enix, Inc's End User License Agreement. Known herein as EULA.
• Analysis of the acceptance
  
  • Was the offer an unilateral offer or a bilateral offer?
    • Unilateral Offer: Promise for an act.
    • The offer requires as acceptance only by complete performance of an act. - NA
    • Bilateral Offer: Promise for a Promise.
      • Square Enix, Inc will maintain that the use of such software and the payment of the agreed price per Content ID, binds the user to the EULA and that the user agrees not to violate any rule in the EULA or is subject to such contractual breach of agreement.
  • Was there a current (objective) manifestation of intent to accept all terms of the offer?
    
    • Qualified acceptance: The offeree or user pays Square Enix, Inc for the use of their program & service and thusly agrees to the terms of the contract.
    • Counter Offer: The offeree rejects the offeror’s offer and simultaneously, a new offer is made by the offeree. - NA
    • The effect of a qualified acceptance or counter-offer.
      • A qualified acceptance or counter-offer is essentially a rejection of the original offer and the creation of a new offer.
      • The places of the offeror and the offeree are reversed.
        • By making a qualified acceptance or counter-offer, the offeree becomes the offeror. Similarly, the original offeror becomes the offeree.

Do I need to continue?

[Feba]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Yes, it's like speeding, except on a closed course (You aren't going to hurt anyone but yourself), and to study the effects of speeding, not to see if you'll get arresseted (I hate english)

Cheating is Cheating, yes. Breaking the Rules/Law isn't, nessicierilaijluly

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

actually bungiefan had correctly distinguished what is third/first/second party:

1st party is made by the actual company. 2nd party is made by other people with permission from the 1st party. 3rd party is made by other people without permission from the first party.

SquareEnix is a 2nd party developer for the PS2, while Sony is a 1st party for the PS2. Companies like Blaze and Datel, which make unlicensed devices and software for the PS2, are 3rd parties.

so a program made by a user IS a third-party program since the user is a third party developer.

a second-party developer is a developer who, while being a separate entity from any console manufacturer, is tied to a specific one usually through contract or partial ownership and makes games specifically for that console manufacturer.

third-party developer is a developer that is not directly tied to the primary product the consumer is using. The primary product may be hardware or software.

meh I'm still a bit confused over this xD

edit:
Yet, if you speed to study the effects of speeding, you ARE still speeding. If you use cheats, to studying what hacks can do, you are still hacking. While break rules alone isn't necessarily cheating, to break them intentionally is cheating.