The Third Party [A Discussion]

[Rodin]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

The thing about windower is that IMO, it's not really a cheat. The term Cheat is definied as "something that gives an unfair advantage". Now, bots, fleehacks, etc, they give you an unfair advantage, but being able to check your IMs or look at somepage while LFG...does that seem like an unfair advantage? Ok, now think about this. A friend of mine has a dual monitor set up which allows him to run FFXI on one monitor, and allows him to do other things on his other monitor, like check email, somepage, watch TV, etc. It's NOT against the ToS seeing as how he's not using a third party program to do this. But still it's technically like using the windower. But it's not against the ToS, and he'll never be banned legally for it. So does windower seem that bad? I know it gives players the ability to cheat, but if you really think about it, most people who use it are only using it to do other things like IM.

[Kirsteena]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

The problem with windower is that people use it as a basis to run the various hacks. From that point of view, you can see why SE get so antsy about it.

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Well, if we go by what is a "cheat," I would settle on the definition being "To violate rules deliberately, as in a game" (from dictionary.com xD). As in the ToS, Windower does break the rules and is a bannable/suspendable offense. I can't see why one can exclude Windower from being a cheat (on another hand, I can understand it being seen as not a "cheat" in the way _____ is, etc., but it is still a cheat/3rd party program nonetheless no?).

[Omniblast]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Taodyn:

I think I can finally clear up this discussion. The EULA basically states yada yada it's a agreement between SE (1st party) and you (2nd party). Now, when you VIOLATE the EULA, by writing and reverse engineering POL or FFXI, you essentially BECOME 3rd party. The agreement between you (2nd party) and SE (1st party) becomes void at that point, and thusly they can terminate your account, disaplinary action yada yada etc.

Now to throw something fun into the mix in which we've already had a discussion about before, FRAPS is considered 3rd party. (OH NOEZ!!!) Will you be banned for using FRAPS? probably not.

This goes back to the discussion about speeding and cops and getting caught or not.

And Technically, if you make a video or a screen shot, of yourself using such a utility... you couldn't get banned for it because that would be the like pleading the 5th amendment? Something about self incriminating yourself is not likely to occur... or was the 5th amendment double jeopardy... (I forgot my bill of rights *sigh*)

[Taskmage]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Well, that's the line between illegal and immoral. You can use windower responsibly just as you might use marajuana responsibly, but some people are bound to abuse it so as a blanket rule it's verboten.

[Taodyn]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Actually, Omni, if the agreement becomes null and void, you cannot be third party because there is nothing to be third party to.

You can only be third party to an agreement or transaction between two other parties. No agreement means no principal parties, which, in turn, means no third parties.

*Waits for Omni's head to explode*

[Rodin]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Well, technically, editing any of the .dat files is bannable, and I believe illegal, seeing as how they're copyrighted by SE. But many people seem to be enjoying them. Not many people see it as wrong-doing. But as well as the windower being against the ToS, so are editing the .dat files. I don't think you should group the windower in as a cheat, when it does nothing to give a player an unfair advantage, unless they're using it to run a bot, WHICH, you can do without using windower anyways.

[x1ang]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Actually, Omni, if the agreement becomes null and void, you cannot be third party because there is nothing to be third party to.

Well, if there's no agreement between you and SE then that is when you're account is no longer in existence ^^. And yes, there wouldn't be any "third party" because there won't be a "first party" either..

And Technically, if you make a video or a screen shot, of yourself using such a utility... you couldn't get banned for it because that would be the like pleading the 5th amendment? Something about self incriminating yourself is not likely to occur... or was the 5th amendment double jeopardy... (I forgot my bill of rights *sigh*)

It's both :D

Double-Post Edit:
Well, how I see it is that anything that is done that violates the ToS is cheating, even .DAT swapping yes. Now, it certainly doesn't mean that its "bad" as you can be a "harmless cheater" but still a cheater xD.

[Dux]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

[b][size=3]They're thinking of trading 1 moat crap for the effect of 8 stacks, to make Lu Shangs quest easier, and a things which are even scarier.

This line here concerns me greatly. Anyone who played PSO may remember an exploit where omebody trades you an item that is deemed illegal in some way. The servers then detected it on you, the receiver of the item, and you get banned. A new wave of MPK was born. I pray this doesn't happen here.

[Rodin]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Well, that's the line between illegal and immoral. You can use windower responsibly just as you might use marajuana responsibly, but some people are bound to abuse it so as a blanket rule it's verboten.

I'm not a pothead or anything. I've never done any illicit drugs. All I do is drink socially (rarely ever get drunk), and I probably drink with friends (I never do it by myself) once every 2-3 months. But listen to this:

Cigarettes kill more people per year than all other forms of illicit drugs combined. Cigarettes and Alcohol are both drugs. Drugs are defined as anything that has a psychological or physical impact on the human body. So, why are cigarettes legal? Simple, it's money. If you think that the issues of money isn't big in the war against Tobacco, you're wrong. The only reason cigarettes are not illegal is because by the time that we noticed that they were addictive and had VERY adverse effects, the economy and money gained from them were HUGE.

Now, Cigarettes have a similar effect on the body as Marijuana does. While the sence of euphoria isn't as large, cigarettes do indeed give a sense of it. Also, note that everytime you smoke, your blood pressure rises, your heart rate increases, and your over-all body temperature raises. Now, Marijuana does produce a sense of relaxation, and it's a lot more prominent than cigarettes, but cigarettes are still stimulants none-the-less.

While I don't smoke pot (I can't stand the smell.) I don't care if people do it, as long as they don't abuse it. Honeslty, I think our irrational concept of being politically correct is drowning out the laws of Darwinism. If somebody abuses it, to the point where it not only affects their health to the point where they become dependant on the chemical in question, then I believe they should deal with it themselves. Honestly if the whole "Don't punish your kids, don't do this, don't do that, that's not right, you should keep quiet about your thoughts" age didn't come up, I think more people would be responsible with things like drinking and smoking.

[Taskmage]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Well, maybe marajuana was a bad example. It was the first thing I thought of that was illegal, but had potentially beneficial and benign uses when used responsibly. I'm aware that the reason many drugs are illegal has nothing to do with your big brother looking out for your health, and I share the opinion that outlawing some of those substances while leaving alcohol and tobacco legal is terribly hypocritical. But ... that's neither here nor there.

[Rodin]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

lol, yeah, people used to hate debating against me in high school. Because no matter what stance I had on something, I would always play the devil's advocate and argue against their point, just to make an interesting debate.

Anyways, I just don't think using the windower alone should be seen as committing a sin against SE. While bots are immoral, using the windower responsibly isn't, IMO. You'll always have the assholes who use bots, there's no way around that. It's even more apparent when you're sitting in Dragon's Aery for 3 hours, just to see the same LS claim night after night, after night, after night, after night. Just do the right thing, don't bot.

[Coris]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Hmm. I hope that now we can recognize abuses like this while they are happening. I'm not sure that gms will listen to little me saying, "I'm totally certain this guy is hacking because of X, Y, and Z."

We should make "hack free" t-shirts and start an in-game campaign. Raise awareness. Of course, that would dampen the rp element just a hair.

[Rodin]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Of course, that would dampen the rp element just a hair.

Ok, from now on, we call all forms of botting, hacking, or cheating, a Genie. Why? Because like a Genie, they'll grant your wishes. They'll get your NM, they make you run faster, and they'll make you an overall "better" player!!!1111oneoneeleven.

So please people, don't rub the lamp! (lol, I think RPing is dumb, I don't see how people can delude themselves into thinking that they are ACTUALLY the character they're playing.)

[Aksannyi]

Re: The Third Party [A Discussion]

Well I sometimes have dreams about being in Vana'diel, but I think that's just because I play so much ...