3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

[Aeni]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Thank you AKosygin. As a beta tester, many of us cleared the use of FRAPS with GM Thalina, Chandrak and others. However, my saying so won't be word enough, which is why I challenged people to go read the TOA themselves and tell me where it says that FRAPS is illegal - either implicitly or explicitly.

And Sugesuke_Plain just made it even more apparent with his comment about the Fan Festival event. If FRAPS or similar programs (I use that word loosely, only because arguments might be made trying to associate "black" programs with something like FRAPS either for or against the use) are condoned by SE in their own events and if players end up getting in trouble because of this, then in a legal sense, SE is setting themselves up for nasty and expensive litigations. I don't think their own general counsel is that stupid.

[Caspian]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Whats the actual reason for the built in SS program to not capture all the overlays?

[Aeni]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Whats the actual reason for the built in SS program to not capture all the overlays?

It had something to do with a PS2 limitation on memory. But that's all I can offer at this point, because in Beta, one of the key devs told us he couldn't provide an answer (This was in one of the emails we were getting on a sporadic basis -- pretty lame for testing standards if you asked me >.< ) You'd think that wouldn't be an issue with the PC, but code for code, FFXI was indeed ported from PS2 to the PC and not made any different. I guess we can look at the XBox 360 version for proof of this T_T

[Balfree]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

It is a 3rd party software and SE doesnt allow for it.

Even windows vista, which is a full OS, is being rejected by SE for FFXI.. because it has the ability to windowmode any program, and SE doesnt like that.

Sugesuke_Plain has a valid point <.< i wonder if anyone bothered asking SE about that...

[Jarre]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Aeni is 100% correct. The reason using FRAPS isn't breaking the TOS is because it does not affect, alter, or modify FFXI at all. Its sole purpose is to capture images on your screen. As far as advertising or using any of the images you do capture or publishing them anywhere, that could be against the TOS because as someone said before, they're copyrighted material. But the use of FRAPS is perfectly legal.

I get where your coming from but the key point is, its not illegal in the TOA to have it on your computer, its if it is runnign and you use it in game to take a screenshot or video etc. then it is against their TOC. the other thing is to grain a bit bck onto topic, the interations between the GM's and players is suposed to be confidential i.e. one to one and the posting of the text between a GM and a player should be kept that way. To post and cause hate campaigns against certain Gm's no matter what they have said or done (as we all know some people can always "bend" the truth). the GM's don't publically publish all their interactions with players or have it accessable by others (unless in extreem circumstances where requested by a law enforcement agency). That is their main tangent, its the text, why do you think the FFXI screencap method doesn't show any text boxes? anyone can photoshop text to say different things and if they are good it can nearly be unoticable. Also people could use the text millicously against other players etc. its safe to say the screencap software SE use prevents any of this and basically, covers their arse from any subsequent matters that could arrise from this in the form of harrasment, legal actions etc. I personally would like SE to allow the character data on the right of the screen to be included etc, who knows. I am considering emailing SE if they can provide offical feedback on the use of Frapps for screen captures and quietly mention the fan festival video competition etc.

Lol macht you should read my posts, though i know there long and i waffle occasionally, but the usefull content is in there (somewhere) lol

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

No, the only way running it while playing the game is illegal is if you use the copyrighted material you get from it in some way that violates copyright laws. Running the program itself IS NOT against the TOS> And as for Windows Vista, that's our point. SE won't support it because it's basically got a built-in windower. Any program on your PC is not illegal if it doesn 1: Connect to FFXI's files in anyway 2: Doesn't require any of FFXI's files to run 3: Doesn't manipulate or in anyway affect FFXI's files or the program of POL or FFXI itself. If a program doesn't touch FFXI in anyway while the game is running, it isn't illegal. FRAPS doesn't use anything of FFXI to run, it's just a screen capture program. It's the same thing as saying grabbing a Video Camera and recording your monitor while you're playing isn't illegal because in all actuality, that video camera interacts with FFXI as much as FRAPS does. Which is not at all.

Double Post Edited:

[b] the other thing is to grain a bit bck onto topic, [\b]

As a side note, we ARE on topic. lol

[Omniblast]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Regarding Windows Vista, what is the final verdict from Square Enix on the use of Vista & Final Fantasy XI? Someone should have asked during Fan Festival, but we got stupid questions like, "Does CHR affect Provoke?"

[neighbortaru]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

but we got stupid questions like, "Does CHR affect Provoke?"

it's not stupid if it shuts the morons up once and for all.

[klvino]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

In beta, it was occasionally neccessary to SS stuff and send it in, and sometimes the only way to perform that task reliably was using fraps. And this is where the confusion begins... we aren't in beta anymore, so are we still allowed to fraps or not. Personally, I've discontinued use to prevent any potential conflicts, but would love to have an official answer from S-E to settle the matter.

Since the matter is getting blown out of proportion, work from a GM may not be enough, S-E would need to say something to settle it once and for all and put it all to rest.

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Oh man. Wtfe. I'm not gonna beat this dead horse anymore. I can't believe after all the information and LOGICAL explanations from AK, Aeni, and myself you guys are still himming and hawing. Believe what you will, you'll be able to argue semantics for days no matter what proof we hand out so I'm wiping my hands clean of this.

[Macht]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

it's not stupid if it shuts the morons up once and for all.

Agreed there, I never really thought CHR to effect Provoke. My theory has been a different stat. CHR as far as I can tell seem to be like a Random Modifier or your luck rating of some sort. Like SE it taking the basic stats they always used in their previous games and instead of putting LUCK they renamed it to CHR.

To quote a part of AKosygin's post of the aggrement 'To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;...'

Modify is the key point I was going off of. A program can unintentionaly be using a method that would modify another programs process. To the point that Aeni stated if the GMs or someone from SE said "Yes go ahead and use that program" then it is a definate "WHITE" because that is basically consent. If the program is found to be causing an exploit that players take advantage of then it can be banned, so even though it is a "WHITE" now it's still a use at your own risk.

It won't have any problems as long as there is no exploit with it and as long as no player that finds a potential exploit takes advantage of it. Just breaking the Agreement down to such specifics creates so many areas of gray that the best BLACK and WHITE method is to just go with the decision of any 3rd party or none (excluding OS dependant for security and normal operation).

That's my stand, in either point I myself could careless if someone used FRAPS. I see it having no real damaging effect to the game currently, if something is discovered were it can be used to cheat and people exploit it then I will have an issue with the use of FRAPS. Windower is a different story especially the newer versions of it since it does have damaging potentials it can do.

Double Post Edited:

Whats the actual reason for the built in SS program to not capture all the overlays?

The built in SS program only works if you remove the overlays, but it also tags the photo with the SE copyright information. I'll have to look at my older SSs but I could swear that before the SS program use to work when the overlays were there, if that is the case then SE intentionaly made that change which again brings question of FRAPS really being that clean a program it could be falling into a grayish area now.

Have to keep in mind online agreements are changing they never stay like they were when first created. So it is necisary to keep up-to-date on the agreements so you are not unintentionaly doing something illegal. Which circulates back to my position of just taking it as any 3rd party program or none.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

FTR, I've utilized FRAPS, but for own personal usage such as seeing my FPS at a given time (Dynamis, Lower Jeuno, Yhoator) and under different settings to see how my performance is affected. I test for lag, delay in loading, character loading and response time to different circumstances to find the best settings for given graphic levels.

. . .if that is the case then SE intentionaly made that change which again brings question of FRAPS really being that clean a program it could be falling into a grayish area now.

If FRAPS is illegal, by definition, so is running Winamp.

OKies, speculation and stuff is all well and good, but just like the Constitution, the ToS means different things to the different people that read it based on the interpretations that they WANT. Those in the thread so far that want it to be allowable offer a different perspective of the same exact words as those that believe it to fall under the umbrella of 3rd Party and, hence, illegal.

So let me cut to the point: Fraps is 3rd party, this much is fact. And no matter what we may think or view it as, Fraps runs by monitoring DirectX components, measuring FPS and allowing straight Screenshots right from the graphics card. The fact that the SE copyright logo is missing voids the validity of the screens taken, because as intellectual property, their graphics, game and technology is being misrepresented.

To those of us that play the game, we know what things look like, but without the copyright info, someone could easily take a screenshot, show it to some non-gamer and say that this is a game they are working on.

No, FRAPs does not affect gameplay, per se, nor does it interact WITH FFXI, per se. However, it, when running at the same time as FFXI, can do things unintended by the developers, such as taking screenshots of conversations. Whether these screenshots are incriminating or not, there have been documented GM conversations (ironically taken using FRAPS. . .) where they said they could not accept the "proof" that someone was a Gilseller/MPKer/Botter, etc, because the screenshot did not have the SE Copyright on it.

And please, that Winamp comment was remarkably unrelated, Winamp running is the same as having WordPad or Internet Explorer open, in that different components of the computer are being utilized. The difference between having Winamp and FRAPS open whilst playing FFXI is that i can't use winamp to do something IN Final Fantasy. With FRAPS, I can do something directly relating to the game, whether it is seen as minor or not.

So it's against the ToS, but due to the nature of it being unharmful (for the most part, at least. . . ) SE would rather turn their heads and spend money and resources combating things like inflation, boting and duping than gamers wanting to take blackmail screenshots of their friends making Brokeback-like references to Chuck Norris, who is, ironically, a cowboy

Making an analogy off of what someone earlier said, running a red light and speeding are both illegal, but if both happen at the same time, the speeder has a bigger penalty because what they are doing endangers more people, so the law enforcer might turn their head to the light-runner.

[zettair]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

If you are on a PS2 and you are using a computer while playing then you are "enhancing your playing experience" by being able to search the net for info. How then can a PC user not try and do the same thing unless they are both mutually wrong. All I see are people complaining about people using Fraps or the windower like they are sins.

Honestly, I think if Square says in their ToA that 3rd party programs are illegal then why even have a PC version because then the OS itself is a 3rd party program. Unless they specifically say that 3rd party programs that effect FFXI are against it. If it doesn't say that then they could technically say just because you are using a PC you are against the ToA.

I'm just trying to be objective here. Frankly, I don't think Fraps is bad because screenshots are much of a problem. I think the windower is against the ToA because it does effect FFXI by hooking it and putting it into a window. There are clear differences. Fraps doesn't effect FFXI and several people have stated as such in this thread.

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

No, FRAPs does not affect gameplay, per se, nor does it interact WITH FFXI, per se. However, it, when running at the same time as FFXI, can do things unintended by the developers, such as taking screenshots of conversations. Whether these screenshots are incriminating or not, there have been documented GM conversations (ironically taken using FRAPS. . .) where they said they could not accept the "proof" that someone was a Gilseller/MPKer/Botter, etc, because the screenshot did not have the SE Copyright on it.

No, they won't accept ANY screenshots as proof of violations in the game. Even the ones that have the copyright logo on it. This is because any type of digital image can be doctored.

Damnit, I said I wasn't coming back.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Well let's just accept that all GMs are bastards who can't do awsome things. Instead of putting ppl in jail, GMs should come in, hit players once, and make them delevel 5 times and have them randomly lose 3-5 pieces of equipment permanently. THAT would be justice. See how often you bot/mpk if you get GM smacked out of your AF armor or God Gear.

And the fault itself lies in the wording, and as I said, there are different interpretations. SE will need clearer vernacular because if taken literally, any program running in the background while you are playing FFXI could be considered 3rd party.