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[Aeni]

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It won't stop the RMT. They will find other ways to connect outside of China. You see, there's so many ways of interconnecting between nations that there is absolutely no way that China can control this.

Also, RMT companies will be wise to partner with "insurgents" or "revolutionists" and say that they support the cause for freedom and democracy. By doing so, RMT companies will be able to access underground communication to circumvent this issue.

http://www.internetnews.com/ec-news/article.php/3585546

American's own government condemn restrictions of internet access and the stifling of freedom to communicate without persecution. In a sense, this goes beyond RMT and unfortunately, you won't stop RMT with just one law handed down in Beijing. What this action only does is to serve as a way to silence opposition to the government, nothing more.

In other words, if you feel that this is great news, because it supposedly gets rid of RMT, you have some serious issues that you need to deal with. [Destroying a whole village in order to find one Vietcong terrorist will only serve to have a whole nation turned against you.]

[WishMaster3K]

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Idk why I posted this, possibly due to boredom, but when I saw this article, I thought Gilsellers, and maybe that was wrong of me to do. . .

But ANYWAY, I was just wondering what would be the effect of all MMOs if the Chinese Government severely limited the internet usage of the country.

Maybe I should have specified, but I thought I established that an action like this would stop RMT, but that a *SIMILAR* Action could limit them.

No correlaiton between Minors and RMT, because it is unlikely that minors are the bulk, if any number at all, of those doing RMT.

Please, listen:

I was thinking along the lines of the chinese government putting major restrictions on the flow of info in the internet, and then THAT might affect RMT. In no way was I implying that the news I linked too at the top was such a thing.

Moving on, aside from that, there were some valid points made, and they effectively piqued my interest, so TY for that

[Omni]

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shhh... no internet for you.
wha? you want internet?
how about this tank track on your face instead?
yay! our people dont want the internet anymore! our people have seen the goal of our government! rejoice!

[Aeni]

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I was thinking along the lines of the chinese government putting major restrictions on the flow of info in the internet, and then THAT might affect RMT. In no way was I implying that the news I linked too at the top was such a thing.

It would be better if China cooperates with authorities outside of their own country. Alas, the popular sentiment in Beijing is, "We can police ourselves, thank you very much. Now, get the **** off our balls and leave us alone!" LOL

[lionx]

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If you havent really noticed America does not want to cooperate with China seeing as they will have the potential to become more powerful in a couple of years(and hence why everyone around SF is trying to learn Chinese to do buisness with them), so in the end they have to cooperate with Russia with trade-offs because Russia isnt going to help China anytime soon without some benefit of their own.

And who wants America with the nukes to dictate what they as a country which is none of anyone else's buisness to do? You would say the same too if someone else was more powerful than you and wanted to run your country or face consequences. And i wont even bother responding to Omni..

[Omni]

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If you havent really noticed America does not want to cooperate with China seeing as they will have the potential to become more powerful in a couple of years(and hence why everyone around SF is trying to learn Chinese to do buisness with them), so in the end they have to cooperate with Russia with trade-offs because Russia isnt going to help China anytime soon without some benefit of their own.

And who wants America with the nukes to dictate what they as a country which is none of anyone else's buisness to do? You would say the same too if someone else was more powerful than you and wanted to run your country or face consequences. And i wont even bother responding to Omni..

im sorry you cant share my sarcasm. /comfort

how does america not want to cooperate with china? do you not see the hordes of businessmen trying to setup operations over there in the quick scramble to cash in on the labor market there? or do you mean the government? well, you have to understand, it is still a communist government. if america didnt want to cooperate with china, they wouldnt send diplomats and the president to the country to begin with. russia is a has been. russia has no power in the world anymore, even with their nukes. not cooperating is the us stance towards north korea, THATS lack of cooperation. china and us relations are tense at times but hardly not cooperating. both sides see the need for each other, like it or not.

but to put things short, china will never become the powerhouse they have the potential of being w/o first making china a safe and happy place to live. look at every country that focuses on military strength FIRST before the welfare of their people. ie: russia, north korea, iraq, etc. look at what they are now? look at their people. make your people happy and your country will rise like no other. i promise you this. you really think businessmen are trying to learn chinese so they can kiss some powerful chinese ass? im sure chinese government thinks so b/c of their love for self flattery. chinese people love that. ive witnessed this in chinese and taiwanese cultures. my own and around me. these people are learning chinese so they can control their labor with their own words not to appease the people they are trying to control.

[Aeni]

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but to put things short, china will never become the powerhouse they have the potential of being w/o first making china a safe and happy place to live. look at every country that focuses on military strength FIRST before the welfare of their people. ie: russia, north korea, iraq, etc. look at what they are now? look at their people. make your people happy and your country will rise like no other. i promise you this. you really think businessmen are trying to learn chinese so they can kiss some powerful chinese ass? im sure chinese government thinks so b/c of their love for self flattery. chinese people love that. ive witnessed this in chinese and taiwanese cultures. my own and around me. these people are learning chinese so they can control their labor with their own words not to appease the people they are trying to control.

To keep it in perspective of RMT discussion ... (w -- let's try) ... I'll try to respond.

I think I agree with Omni that the Chinese governtment has some serious issues they need to hammer out before they can become the next "South Korea" of Asia. South Korea succeeded economically, but in the roaring hey-days of the 80s and early 90s (Before the collapse of their banking structure and IMF stepping in) the government's lack of keeping pace with the growing industries and expanding residential areas caused major infrastructure issues as well as social problems.

But, at the same time, because China is such a giant nation, that to control all of these people (Please, do not read this as a negative) will require such a huge government institution. Imagine America with 5 times the population it has today. Add in 10 times the problem with Medicare, domestic violence, crime, pollution, welfare, even RMT -- you get the idea? What kind of government would be able to handle all of that? I think communism, as anachronistic as it may be, might be the only viable solution in today's social-political climate.

[Caspian]

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Quite frankly US needs China right now, for the talks with North Korea more than anything. That fruit loop up there keeps demanding bilateral talks b/w the States and himself. Ummm, screw you? You start giving into that psycho's demands now and he'll just keep taking more.
Anyway, sorry about the tangent. I honestly wonder if its going to take what happened to the USSR to happen to China before the people can ever establish a true freedom. And as Aeni pointed out earlier, the end most definately does not justify the means. Limiting an entire people's freedom with the unintended consequence of perhaps slowing RMT is not a good tradeoff.

[lionx]

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I personally highly doubt the US government to really care about China unless they have something to gain from it sorta like Iraq. America has said many times they want free trade, yet when China wants to buy some company to further expand their technology in gasoline and other stuff for more than what Chevron would pay, they wont give it to them in fear of being a threat to them. I also do understand its communist, but their economical structure is different than a purely communist nation, that being said i hope they adopt their own form of government and not what the US wants of them like Iraq.

Just having nukes is a big and powerful weapon, when you are a major country having nukes are essential to not being threatened. I have little faith in treaties of non nuclear proliferation when it comes down to who will win a war, in the sense that if everyone has a gun no robber will invade your home without alot of second thoughts, simiarily with Iran is now with their nuclear research. They need it, or they are going to be a nobody and pushed around.

You wish they are learning the langauge to kiss ass, they are learning it for their own economical gain because there is potential for buisnesses to succeed there, there has been many articles and i think(dont watch it very often) a broadcast about this on the news once about that. While its nice to see other people taking interest in your country's langauge, i honestly dont think things are the way you put it. Rarely does anyone do something for someone else for free especially in the coporate world. Why learn it if they arent going to benefit from it?

I dont know what sup with North Korea these days..i havent really kept up with the news like i should have with college. But i am not saying China is perfect(far from it, there are issues it would be stupid not to say there are none), but its far from the impression you guys leave off with especially with RMT being a little bit bigger there. As for what happened with USSR, i think China wont see that happening, i do believe they will slowly change and will become alot more better and stronger, just needs time. They are taking the right steps economically i believe, and i feel thats most important at this moment.

But that has nothing to do with RMT -_-; Back on topic: RMT sucks and i wish there are no more idiots that actually would buy virtual data for a game of all things...bfdlajdl;aj @_@;

[Caspian]

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Just having nukes is a big and powerful weapon, when you are a major country having nukes are essential to not being threatened. I have little faith in treaties of non nuclear proliferation when it comes down to who will win a war, in the sense that if everyone has a gun no robber will invade your home without alot of second thoughts, simiarily with Iran is now with their nuclear research. They need it, or they are going to be a nobody and pushed around.

That metaphor doesn't quite work here, since the more people with nuclear weapons means more people to potentially "misplace" one and they end up in the hands of a less than responsible party (terrorists). One misplaced gun could mean two or three people die. One misplaced nuclear warhead could mean two or three hundred thousand people die. Personally, I wouldn't feel real comfortable with Iran having nuclear weapons when the very same people have somehow blamed American for the Mohammed cartoons published in Europe. Can't quite figure out the connection to that one, but in protests of the cartoon people were yelling "Death to America!" I guess when you're a borderline Jihad, reasons for hatred aren't necessary.

You wish they are learning the langauge to kiss ass, they are learning it for their own economical gain because there is potential for buisnesses to succeed there, there has been many articles and i think(dont watch it very often) a broadcast about this on the news once about that. While its nice to see other people taking interest in your country's langauge, i honestly dont think things are the way you put it. Rarely does anyone do something for someone else for free especially in the coporate world. Why learn it if they arent going to benefit from it?

I may have misread Omni's post, but I think you and he agree on that point. Its pretty much the basics of politics and business, you do what you have to to get ahead and take advantage of the weaker or the ignorant (don't freak out, I'm not calling the Chinese ignorant).

I dont know what sup with North Korea these days..i havent really kept up with the news like i should have with college. But i am not saying China is perfect(far from it, there are issues it would be stupid not to say there are none), but its far from the impression you guys leave off with especially with RMT being a little bit bigger there. As for what happened with USSR, i think China wont see that happening, i do believe they will slowly change and will become alot more better and stronger, just needs time. They are taking the right steps economically i believe, and i feel thats most important at this moment.

I don't mean the economic collapse of the USSR, I mean the people finally getting fed up enough to unite together and overthrow an oppressive government. From what I've seen, with the government China has now, they will never be able to have the freedom they desire and deserve.

But that has nothing to do with RMT -_-; Back on topic: RMT sucks and i wish there are no more idiots that actually would buy virtual data for a game of all things...bfdlajdl;aj @_@;

Agreed, RMT sucks, and I don't think will much of a bearing at all on the degree its taken hold in FFXI.

[lionx]

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Ok maybe the metaphor wasnt the best...but to have recognition you do need nuclear weapons, Russia didnt quite like China before and were hell bent on pwning them, but they quickly got nukes in time and was safe. Nukes hold a giant force in where you stand as a country thats what i mean, no one will dare touch or push you around as easily when you have them. I personally dont feel comfortable with ANYONE having nuclear weapons, just like with guns, but since its out there, you catch up with the times or get wiped out/pushed around.

I might have misread omni's post and he might have misread mine, so we might be in agreement there. o_o; On that same note, i also find it funny how people complain about greed on the AH on the game. Its how things are run, not that i am a self-fish prick but its true, its what drives an economy to move in the first place, else communism would so rock in this world.

Personally i see China still reletively weak from their communist days and need to recover, i personally hold that over whats stated because i know otherwise there will be chaos, there are people saying bad things about them just so they can get benefits elsewhere(even in SF itself), so i can see where they can come from. Hopefully when things improve it wont have to be that way necessarily, but looking at asians in general, i find it hard to believe they will stay this way forever.

But yes, RMT and China is irrelevant, it just so happens the most of it happens there, it can happen anywhere as long as theres buyers and people getting profit off of this. RMT is faceless in the sense that anyone can do it and it can still be RMT.

[WishMaster3K]

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(post about China and Russia and Economics and Nukes and Politics to follow)

I made two posts, both were nuked by Firefox crashing. I would retype, but I have GF aggro and it's 1:45am >.>

So expect a response tomorrow. Just a heads up.

[WishMaster3K]

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OK! Ready to post.

One thing to keep in mind about China is that fundamentally, Chinese and Russian communism are very different. We can even look at the history of previous neighboring Communist states, and by nature, the way that they work did not allow space for a similar entity in their dreams of domination.

Another thing I've noticed is that although they are communist by governmental standards, the Chinese systen is very much capitalist. I think this is an important difference from a lot of failed communist societies, because as we all know, money makes the world go round. Looking at Russia up until the 80s, they took the stance where their fingers had to be in everyone's cake, make all things "equal" and try to be "Utopian".

As we can see from what goes on in our little economy in FFXI, people, by nature, are greedy bastards, and we want to be properly compensated for our work. Hence, it wasnt a suprise to me when I was reading and researching how the Soviet Union fell.

Then we had the Arms Race of the Cold War. This is where things got kinda funny for me. . . Russia and America were toe-to-toe in the arms race because equal amounts of funds were put into the programs, but Russia spent maybe something along the lines of 85% while America spent 50% or 55%.

This difference alone contributed to the resaons that the Soviet Union fell.

*More To Come Later*

[kuu]

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In general, purest ideals such as capitalism, commuism, socialist, etc, don't work in grand scales. Or maybe rather won't work due to interferences it creates from its people.

Given that, China has a very good amount of capitalism in its blood, as well as fascist and so on.

Just like the fact that USA has a lot of commuism and socialism in its blood and fascist as well give or take if you're a conspiracy persona.


So yea...the world is full of greys, and the only real thing China has problems with is the diversity of rich and poor class issue (and thus human rights issues propogate more)..kinda ironic for a communist founding, but what can you do.

Economy wise...US doesn't really want China, heck some militant groups would like to whipe it out. US trade deficit is a major issue they can magically get it to go away in moderate cases of "less China". The catch is that businesses like China. A catch 22.

On the other hand Taiwan would be the proper "US needs as much as it needs US". That's where the real money is right now. US spent untold money build Taiwan to be a production powerhouse.

RMT itself I always look at it in a economic sense. How much you get vs how much you give.
Cheap labor = get a lot

It doesn't matter if it's China, indonesia, or vietnam. It's China right now because they have good broadband.

I forgot who, but someone once said, "If liposuction wasn't so costly, gyms would go out of business". A joke, but strangely realistic ino our world of fad diets and things.

[Omni]

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So yea...the world is full of greys, and the only real thing China has problems with is the diversity of rich and poor class issue (and thus human rights issues propogate more)..kinda ironic for a communist founding, but what can you do.

Economy wise...US doesn't really want China, heck some militant groups would like to whipe it out. US trade deficit is a major issue they can magically get it to go away in moderate cases of "less China". The catch is that businesses like China. A catch 22.

On the other hand Taiwan would be the proper "US needs as much as it needs US". That's where the real money is right now. US spent untold money build Taiwan to be a production powerhouse.

long weekend almost over

anyhow, im glad to see so many interesting points brought up here.

lionx, i think u did misread what i said about learning chinese. anyhow thats besides the point. i do agree with you on the point you made about rmt and china having no relevant relation. it IS just so happens that it happens there more than any where else. however, on the point of china being weak from the communist days, it goes deeper than that. it always has been weak. it wont change unless the mindset does. they need to break away from the rhetoric and safe choices. look at the '4 tigers' that had such major success. you cannot deny the influneces of chinese culture in them. but why are they so different? they dont have the communist government putting a plastic bag over their brains that suffocate there will to imagine and grow. taiwan, s. korea, hong kong, and singapore i believe at one point equalled 60%+ of the US gdp. how can these small nations grow so well while china has XXXXXX more people and XXXXXX more resources? things wont change until the communists are gone. i dont think theres anywhere other way around it.

kuu, the point you brought is really interesting. the US has this balancing act going on. on one side it doesnt want to piss off china by backing taiwan officially. on the other side it doesnt want to pull out of taiwan b/c if the communists ever decide to invade taiwan, there goes one great resource. so the us does this see-saw btwn the too. appease china by not recognizing taiwan as its own soverign country but supply taiwan with military goods. ie: battle ships, radar, missiles, etc.