Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

[Coinspinner]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

Good luck convinicing an entire server to follow your lead.

Also, what is a luxury item to you? There are many very expensive items out there that have no cheaper alternative.

[Lupine73]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

Good luck convinicing an entire server to follow your lead.

Also, what is a luxury item to you? There are many very expensive items out there that have no cheaper alternative.

Exactly the apathetic mentality I referred to in my post.. One of the very reason prices continue to go up and nothing is done about it. Thank you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about.

As for getting an entire server to "follow me"... It's not necessary. Ever heard of something being "viral"? Such as viral marketing? You tell 3 people you know.... they tell 3 people.. who tell 3 people.. and so on. Eventually, it gets around. Again... word of mouth. It's the same way the power-leveling phenomenon took root, along with many other trends seen in this game. Please don't question the validity of such an approach - it's already proven itself many times over. All it takes is the willingness of a few people to get the ball rolling... instead of taking the "it'll never work" mentality and doing nothing.

And if it doesn't happen.. Hey... at least I tried to put forward something constructive, and didn't just sit around bitching about it.

As for what I consider "luxury" - I base that on the general consensus of what those items are, which have plenty of threads dedicated to them already; Peacock Charm, Kotes, Emp. Hairpin, and so forth. Rare, high-cost items that, while beneficial to a character's abilities.. are not necessary to progress in the game and should not be considered "mandatory" for the average player to possess - especially newer players.

Also, I noted that prices across the board needed fixing, and used the example of silk thread having quadrupled since I first started playing; not only the "luxury" items. I guess you didn't read it that closely.

Since you're so quick to nit-pick and dismiss instead of entertaining the idea of at least *trying* it.. perhaps you have a solution that would work better? Or are you just here to try and demoralize someone with an idea?

[Coinspinner]

Ya know, I really meant that "good luck".

Exactly the apathetic mentality I referred to in my post.. One of the very reason prices continue to go up and nothing is done about it. Thank you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about.

As for getting an entire server to "follow me"... It's not necessary. Ever heard of something being "viral"? Such as viral marketing? You tell 3 people you know.... they tell 3 people.. who tell 3 people.. and so on. Eventually, it gets around. Again... word of mouth. It's the same way the power-leveling phenomenon took root, along with many other trends seen in this game. Please don't question the validity of such an approach - it's already proven itself many times over. All it takes is the willingness of a few people to get the ball rolling... instead of taking the "it'll never work" mentality and doing nothing.

And if it doesn't happen.. Hey... at least I tried to put forward something constructive, and didn't just sit around bitching about it.

As for what I consider "luxury" - I base that on the general consensus of what those items are, which have plenty of threads dedicated to them already; Peacock Charm, Kotes, Emp. Hairpin, and so forth. Rare, high-cost items that, while beneficial to a character's abilities.. are not necessary to progress in the game and should not be considered "mandatory" for the average player to possess - especially newer players.

Also, I noted that prices across the board needed fixing, and used the example of silk thread having quadrupled since I first started playing; not only the "luxury" items. I guess you didn't read it that closely.

Since you're so quick to nit-pick and dismiss instead of entertaining the idea of at least *trying* it.. perhaps you have a solution that would work better? Or are you just here to try and demoralize someone with an idea?

"Just refuse to pay high prices for items until prices correct themselves."

What you suggested has been suggested before... many times. It never worked before. Power leveling and blink tanking benefit players directly, it's quick gratification. What you're asking players to do is suffer over an indefinite but probably long period of time without guarantee of success.

As for luxury items, I always thought of them as items that are slightly better than cheaper items of the same kind, or equipment that costs far more than it's benefits are worth. There is pressure to have good gear, from the players, from the game, from a player's own tendency to want to not suck. For many classes "standard" gear is expensive by itself. A haubergeon should not be a luxury item if haubergeon +1 exists, but both are priced like luxury items. Praise the itemization team for making equipment more unique by not having items scale fluidly.

[Aeni]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

I think luxury should be along the lines of "paying premium for a controversial benefit." A great example of this is the Harpe and Hoplites Harpe. While the Harpe, on the surface, presents an additional 2 point of damage over the Hoplites Harpe, there is no clear indication of what benefit is provided. There has been many inconclusive tests and heated opinions on this, but try to justify spending 11 million on a Harpe over a paltry 15K on a Hoplites Harpe.

To me, the state of the economy is just that - sickening. All these high level players could grab a few players and go and hunt the NM/BCNM/what have you for their desired items, but instead are lazy and choose to escalate the problems with the economy by buying into the AH. This is compounded by players who've found the easy way out - one transaction with an online RMT - to purchase these items.

It's funny how Lupine73 has emphatically suggested we should change the behavior of players in this game, when the very same behavior exhibited is no different from that of the real world - that avid consumerism of the free world capital economy.

[Caspian]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

Exactly the apathetic mentality I referred to in my post.. One of the very reason prices continue to go up and nothing is done about it. Thank you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about.

As for getting an entire server to "follow me"... It's not necessary. Ever heard of something being "viral"? Such as viral marketing? You tell 3 people you know.... they tell 3 people.. who tell 3 people.. and so on. Eventually, it gets around. Again... word of mouth. It's the same way the power-leveling phenomenon took root, along with many other trends seen in this game. Please don't question the validity of such an approach - it's already proven itself many times over. All it takes is the willingness of a few people to get the ball rolling... instead of taking the "it'll never work" mentality and doing nothing.

And if it doesn't happen.. Hey... at least I tried to put forward something constructive, and didn't just sit around bitching about it.

As for what I consider "luxury" - I base that on the general consensus of what those items are, which have plenty of threads dedicated to them already; Peacock Charm, Kotes, Emp. Hairpin, and so forth. Rare, high-cost items that, while beneficial to a character's abilities.. are not necessary to progress in the game and should not be considered "mandatory" for the average player to possess - especially newer players.

Also, I noted that prices across the board needed fixing, and used the example of silk thread having quadrupled since I first started playing; not only the "luxury" items. I guess you didn't read it that closely.

Since you're so quick to nit-pick and dismiss instead of entertaining the idea of at least *trying* it.. perhaps you have a solution that would work better? Or are you just here to try and demoralize someone with an idea?

Get off your high-horse. I do it on a routine basis. I'll check the AH ofr weeks on end just to get a nice item for a little bit less than it already costs. I tell people I know that this is what I do. There's a difference b/w being apathetic and being realistic. And Coinspinner is right, it has been tried before. The same thing always happens, there's no way you can convince 4k people per server to do the exact same thing. To sit on their ass for a few weeks and hope the sellers get the message. It may work for some of us, but you will never get an entire server to follow suit. Again, I'm not trying to be a naysayer, just to let you know its been tried many times and always failed. Honestly I wish it would work.

Another major part of it is crafters. V. cloak is going for over 20m, but Damascene cloth is only going for something like 7m. All told a high lvl clothcrafter can make a v. cloak and net 12m per synth. Its pretty damn disgusting. Atleast with a lot of the other crafts (SH, Hauby, Noble's) they're going for roughly the same price asthe materials. And with NQ ele staves, crafters are actually still losing money, the money they make comes from the HQ's only. Hi-lvl crafters set the outrageous prices, and gilbuyers happily pay it.

[qaitakalnin]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

what most of us are hitting on is that there is 0 competition in our game. In RL prices stay under relative control cause if you dont like the price in one place you can go to another and pay less (usually), basically you get to shop around. Want an SH, requires a crafter, and the crafter doesnt have any true competition on how much to sell for because there may only be a handful of crafters of that lvl (i dont know how many crafters are of that lvl per server). Then you have the issue of the availbility of the materials for the item, and in the example of the SH it is the Venomius claw which only comes from limited sources that are exploited only by a few people (it seems like) so they, in this case the farmers of the V.Claw, have no other competition so they get to determine the price with *most* people either without the resources, or inclination, to get the item.

I have heard a couple of good ideas but i think the best really and truly is to 1) have npc's actually compete against the AH, right now the items, to buy from NPC, is based on the lvl of the item not what it is worth to players, as this is almost impossible, the 2) option is two fold, hehe, first lift the limits on the guild stores for items, and two have an npc sell the materials or even the crafted item (i really dont like this one, but i can almost garuntee, almost, that the crafted prices would come down).

All in all it is in SE's court and as we have seen in the past they wont do anything for ages and ages. I personally believe SE just doesnt care cause until their is a mass exodus of players they are still recieving thier money.

The people i feel sorry for is the X-boxers that are going to come online soon, i mean can you imagine trying to lvl a craft or even just buy decent stuff, that must seem just really really hard. But who knows maybe SE is just waiting for the expansion to do something. I for one am willing to wait (mostly cause i am not one to buy luxury items and the stuff i do "need" i can craft or are not so expansive i can't farm a bit to get them, bear in mind my main job is ranger.....dont ask about arrows). I am going to hope, i have met to many people whose company i enjoy so it is worth the money for me to continue to play a game i like, even if i wont ever have the really cool items, i still enjoy going out and playing.

[Lupine73]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

Okay.. fair enough.

For the record, I wasn't - and am not - on a high-horse. I was expecting a nay-sayer type of reply to it (sadly, it seems anyone with an idea that goes against the flow of things does).. and your first reply struck me as one. I apologize if it came across that way.

I just get flustered to see thread after thread after thread of people complaining (rightfully so) about the price of items. Yet... people can never seem to pull together to make an effort to change things. They choose the path of least resistance and go with the flow, even as the water rises around them.

Now... okay, perhaps it's near impossible - directly - to get people not to buy things. However... what I was mostly getting at is changing the mindset. People seem to take a very "it's inevitable" mentality about these things. Well.. so long as that's the reigning mindset.. it is inevitable. All the numerous trends that have come along in this game (power-leveling, ninja tanks, food/gear, "you must level in the Dunes from 10-20", etc), did not happen spontaneously. Everyone did not wake up one morning, on all servers, and say "I'm gonna power level starting today!". It likely started with a relative handful of people.. more people caught on and followed-suit.. and before you knew it.. it was an epidemic. You couldn't walk 5' in the Dunes at times without seeing a group being PL'd. As an aside: thank goodness there's increasing back-lash against this now.

If a similar gradual approach were applied and people started a backlash against the current prices, people would catch on. If enough people start speaking out against it, eventually it will catch on. But.. if only a token effort is made with the expectation to fail already lingering.. then it's never going to take root. This isn't an overnight thing. It could take months.. but it's gotta start somewhere, with someone. Because someone tried and failed before doesn't mean it's not worth trying again. That's a true quitter's mentality.

I still refuse to believe it's impossible to turn it around.

Get off your high-horse. I do it on a routine basis. I'll check the AH ofr weeks on end just to get a nice item for a little bit less than it already costs. I tell people I know that this is what I do. There's a difference b/w being apathetic and being realistic. And Coinspinner is right, it has been tried before. The same thing always happens, there's no way you can convince 4k people per server to do the exact same thing. To sit on their ass for a few weeks and hope the sellers get the message. It may work for some of us, but you will never get an entire server to follow suit. Again, I'm not trying to be a naysayer, just to let you know its been tried many times and always failed. Honestly I wish it would work.

Another major part of it is crafters. V. cloak is going for over 20m, but Damascene cloth is only going for something like 7m. All told a high lvl clothcrafter can make a v. cloak and net 12m per synth. Its pretty damn disgusting. Atleast with a lot of the other crafts (SH, Hauby, Noble's) they're going for roughly the same price asthe materials. And with NQ ele staves, crafters are actually still losing money, the money they make comes from the HQ's only. Hi-lvl crafters set the outrageous prices, and gilbuyers happily pay it.

[Karinya]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

Inflation IS limited to a few select items - at least as far as equippable gear goes. There are many, many items that hardly sell at all and go for peanuts. Are they weaker? A bit. Will they make you worthless? Heck no. Why do people pay tens of millions of gil for a tiny performance increase? Beats me.

The worst inflation offenders are generally +accuracy gear. Wearing little or no +acc gear will not make you miss every swing, or even half your swings. You might hit 70% with +10 acc (just a life belt and no sushi, I doubt anyone would really go THAT low) and 80% with +50 acc and sushi (probably costing you like 50 million for SH/hauby, peacock, snipers, etc.) on the same mob. The effect of +acc gear is much smaller than many players realize. And accuracy is only part of doing damage - hitting harder is important too. An excessively acc-oriented setup hits more often, but for weak damage, and their fast TP growth only leads to weak weaponskills and more TP for the monster too.

As a tank, I wear practically no +acc gear - it just isn't that important compared to def, vit and enmity - and I never use +acc foods in exp - but I still hit most of my swings. Sure, I'm Mithra, but it's not THAT big a difference. The dominant factor in hitting or missing is simply level - nobody is going to hit an IT+12 the same rate they hit a VT+7. Using an A ranked weapon (especially after 60) and keeping it skilled up is 2nd. Accuracy JAs (if you have them) are 3rd. Acc gear and food is a fairly distant 4th. Race is an even more distant 5th. Insane amounts of +acc are only useful for HNMs, where you can't just wait until you're a more reasonable level to fight them.

Now, when it comes to something like silent oils, there really isn't an alternative that you can use, so inflation there hurts everyone. Inflation on crafting materials would hurt crafters, except they just pass it along to people who buy their stuff (unless they are crafting to sell to NPC, just for skillups). But inflation on the shiniest NM/crafted-from-NM-drops gear doesn't have to hurt everyone, just the ones that feel they need to have the absolute best possible everything.

Also, the flipside of inflation is that it's easy to make money. A year ago there was no non-NM a level 10 could kill that could give them even 2k in drops. Now every level 3 crawler in Sarutabaruta could drop a 5k silk thread. Beehive chips, seeds, bone chips, wild onions and other low level drops are all way up too. Oh, and crystals, low levels are rolling in crystals. Newbies can make a TON more money than they ever could before, and since a lot of low level gear and all low level spells can be bought cheaply from NPCs (which don't inflate at all), it's a huge benefit for them. It would be so much easier to farm for Dispel now than it was when I did it. (Erase, on the other hand, is a moving target, but there are more ways to BCNM for it than their used to be, including ones that don't require level 40, so that's a net benefit to new players too.)

[Moaku Hyena]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

Well, when I put something on the AH I normally, if not always, put it up there for 1 FRICKING GIL! I want to see this on a Scorpion Harness or some other uber item.

1/13/06 Mithrakitty -> Laoxu 250,000,000 Gil
1/15/06 Nine -> Red 300,000,000 Gil
1/16/06 Neru -> Shippo 50,100 Gil
1/17/06 Huu -> Lith 50,000 Gil
(Big wait here because no one wants to spend someone's millions reserve price on a Harness again)
2/1/06 Nilly -> Laoxu 50,000 Gil
2/7/06 Pain -> Pwned 49,000 Gil

....I wish. People are too greedy.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

A 60-70% hit rate is inadequate for a DD. The main offender is DRK, since their only JA that boost ACC is Souleater which has strings attached to say the least. I did group with DRKs who wore AF, life belt, and dex rings in the pre-sushi days, and 70% hit rate for them is generous. The rest don't suffer as much.

Well, when I put something on the AH I normally, if not always, put it up there for 1 FRICKING GIL! I want to see this on a Scorpion Harness or some other uber item.

I wish I'd landed on Ramuh then. I made a habit of bidding 101/1001 gil on every expensive item just to see if I got lucky. Oh, and (going price * 0.1), it's great.

[Aeni]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

Karinya, sushi has made it possible to not miss as often, but what you said in that first line is wrong. In my experience (Coinspinner, back me up on this) as a DRK, I had about a total of +15 acc from misc gear. My hit rate was 55~60% on IT+ Robber Crabs at Cape Terrigan in my late-50s. This was pre-sushi days, when all melees popped mith/chiefkabobs for their food of choice (the pretty penny THFs popped roasted papiras in those days)

Up until more and more sushi became available and prices came down (I remember first seeing Squid Sushi and there were no stack yet up on the AH and saw the per price of them was at 15K) after months of farming, I got a Haubu, Sniper's and Assault Earring. Combined with what I already have, my hit rate jumped 67~76% on parsers. With sushi, that went up a bit over 80% and if I'm fighting the right kind of monsters, that will creep to about 85%.

Not sure what you're fighting or where you got your numbers from, but 70% is a bit generous even for WAR/NIN w/o acc gear and sushi ... >.>

[Coinspinner]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

That sounds about right for IT. 40-69 I grouped with DRKs more than other jobs and got to see many degrees of equipment throught those level ranges.

[Ninnin]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

1st post...

Anyway, I agree with Lupine saying that most expensive items are just luxury. You miss a lot without sniper rings? Well, my friends had no trouble hitting IT++ with no sniper rings, and they didn't hack or anything... so sniper rings a must? By the way, we managed to get chain 5, without all the "MUST" equipments that would cost 1000mil in total if we are to get for everyone in static.
May I ask, how many of us had Scorpion Harness, Sniper rings+1, Cassie, Tamas ring, Astral rings, Peacock charm, etc on our 1st round? And was exp really that bad? I don't think so. I don't feel the omfg bump of the exp even though I am now using the "MUST" equips(all borrowed from friends).
Having no alternatives doesn't make that equip a must, if it cost 80mil to get, I don't think that's a must, Shura Dogi+1 is usable at 73, and for some of the jobs, there is nothing better than that at the level, so does it make it a must?
But at the end, there is nothing we can do to stop people thinking a 9000mil equip is a must, right?

Well, on a happier note, I am not sure if anyone noticed, but it seems BUYERS want to pump price as well as SELLERS. Sellers pumping prices is normal, greed is in everyone of us, but buyers?
How do I know buyers are pumping price? Well, I placed Erase on AH a while ago, it was just 1.7m in history, since I already hated the inflation, I put my Erase up as 1.7m(Didn't want to pump it higher than it is). The next day, I received 1.8m, I checked the history immediately, the whole history was 1.7m, with mine being the 1st 1.8m. Reason? Mine was the last stock, so he assumed I pumped price.
That's not the last one, everytime I put up new stock for an "Out of stock" item at original price as stated in history, I get 40% or more than what I placed. It is a good thing that I can sell things at higher price, on the other hand, that explained how the idiots use the AH, and caused the inflation: As soon as an item is out of stock, without trying at lower price, the "I am gonna die tomorrow, must get 75 right now omfg aol lol rofl bbq stfu gtfo" kids would bid everything at 10% or more on 1st try....
If you have to ask "why would this bunch of idiot cause a problem", ask yourself how the AH work: Is it that the higher bidder win, or is it that the 1st bidder win? Then put the idiot's logic on everything you need, but is overpriced now... i.e. Scorpion harness has 1 stock left, the entire price history is 15m, assuming that stock was placed when there was still 2 or 3 stocks, so assume seller didn't risk to pump the price, and stayed at 15m; however, the next buyer saw it being last stock, without a 2nd thought, he believed the price is pumped, and bid at 20m. The next day, a seller see it went up to 20m, would he place his new stock at less than 20m? I doubt it.

Well, I think if we can somehow educate that bunch of idiots out there, who are overbidding everything, may be we can ease the inflation a little... but more importantly, SE needs to do something about RMT*, if there was no gil buying, this wouldn't have happen, I think.

*Don't bother saying "SE did do something about RMT", they didn't, to my view. Gil farmers that harassed me, spammed me, mpked me well before I took my 1 year break off FF, they are still alive and well. How many RMTs have you seen that are still alive? Even though everyone even the stupidest n00b out there would know they are RMTs, and has SE done a thing to ban them? I haven't seen it myself, I would be glad to see the emotes gone from my server, but I doubt that's gonna happen, ever.*

[bikkebakke]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

I usually try to bid at least 1000gil under on most items or 1 mil under the high priced items, just to see if I could get a deal.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Inflaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation

1st post...

Anyway, I agree with Lupine saying that most expensive items are just luxury. You miss a lot without sniper rings? Well, my friends had no trouble hitting IT++ with no sniper rings, and they didn't hack or anything... so sniper rings a must? By the way, we managed to get chain 5, without all the "MUST" equipments that would cost 1000mil in total if we are to get for everyone in static.

May I ask, how many of us had Scorpion Harness, Sniper rings+1, Cassie, Tamas ring, Astral rings, Peacock charm, etc on our 1st round? And was exp really that bad? I don't think so. I don't feel the omfg bump of the exp even though I am now using the "MUST" equips(all borrowed from friends).

Having no alternatives doesn't make that equip a must, if it cost 80mil to get, I don't think that's a must, Shura Dogi+1 is usable at 73, and for some of the jobs, there is nothing better than that at the level, so does it make it a must?
But at the end, there is nothing we can do to stop people thinking a 9000mil equip is a must, right?

Nobody, because many of those are luxury items or status items. You use items like Sniper Ring+1, EX HNM drops, Shura Dogi+1 in your examples. Stop. Nobody expects crap like that on a leveling player, and people who have things like that generally don't go looking for pickup groups.

Player competence, group compostion, and the right camp will do wonders for exp/hour. But it kinda helps, a lot, to not being saddled with actual gimps. There is a level of gear that is necessary to be adequate, the price and gear depending on the job in question. That level does not change if the gear suddenly quintuples in price. It can change when new items are added or certain equipment becomes more available.