Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

[Selenitic]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Communism!

[Plenum]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Communism!

I was afriad someone who see it like this. Thank You for bringing it up Selenitic.

I would much rather looked at control of the market in a mixed economic point of view.

America - Economic system is a mixed one where government steps in at times in need or trouble. Viewed as a Captialistic makret but in it underlies some ideas of socialism.

Europe - Heavy government assistance to the economy.

China - A communist government. Almost total government control, but in it underlies some captialistic values.

Of course you can learn this in... 10th grade? 11th grade?

I am currently doing a huge managment presentation to the executives of EA Games so I will be a bit busy this week. I've read your comments but I cannot write a reply. I don't want to write a half-assed response cause some of the ideas mentioned were very unique and I would like to expand on them. Unfortunately the rule of thumb comes into play. Real Life before game life. So I'll be back tommrow or maybe tuesday night. This report is pretty interesting (EA Games) but I will be back soon enough to talk more about Economic fixings in FFXI.

I just would like to add that I believe unity among memebers is important. We all get one vote in real life, unless you are from a non-democratic nation. We all have a say in this and we are the ones who pay SE for this game. We have a lot more power than one might think they do. Do not let the big guys push you around.

[safyre]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Wow, I'm so impressed, and just rather joyful at the ideas this post has brought out amongst our fellow players. I think we need to make sure this post is better seen on the forum, because of the fact that is not only enjoying to read, but also brings people's ideas together to help fix one of FFXI's biggest problems.

On another note I believe that we have put aside one of the problems largest components, i.e. gilsellers. Gilsellers, though banned from the game, seem to thrive amongst the masses at all times. SE has said before that they are doing everything they can to stop this problem, but do we really see the change they are trying to describe, or simply the opposite. Gilsellers not only thrive, they have increased into larger numbers. At no time have I seen the number of gilsellers decrease even with the watchful eye of SE. Are we to question the maker? I think it would be wise for players as a whole to put more pressure on SE to the fact that we want change, and deserve change.

What can we ourselves do to enact change with gilsellers? Stop buying gil is one of the best answers, and also one of the most unlikely due to the current economic situation. What else? I love the idea of government in pure form, but I also know that those ideas can be easily twisted. Wouldn't that be interesting? A Grand Council for a government, with elected members to a central power in jueno? The thought itself thrills me. Perhaps the rule of our impartial NPC governments are not satisfying us? Anyways, better to think of the things that a government can do against gilsellers, maybe help investigate, or put more pressure on SE where needed? I'm not sure of all it's applications, but I'm just being ideal once again, huh?

Sincerely,
ARSafyre

p.s.- I truly hope this topic goes strong! Viva la Vana'Diel!

[kuu]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Well, that also depends on how many crafters there are with the skills required to craft those items. On Hades, I think there's like maybe 3 to 5 players that I see actively synthing the higher end smithing items and selling on AH. Majority of smithers are either not interested in plying their trade, are too busy desynthing for profit (i.e., Quad Backplate > Darksteel Ingots) or don't have the necessary skill requirements to synth in the first place (i.e., I hope people do realize that you need more than just a high smithing skill to make something like a Haubergeon, which uses a lot of cloth materials)

If you look at it from that perspective and then look at the rate in which GP item dependant recipes are made, then you'll see how insignificant this increase insupply really is. Also note that, unlike a real world population, server population is pretty finite, with people leaving at about the same rate as people joining (At this mature stage in the game's lifespan) I really doubt XBox360 will bring in much more new customers, as majority of these players already own a PC version account.

Once you hit a threshold of people having what they need, you will hit critical mass at which the economy will just crumble under it's own weight. You're pushing for supply to outstrip demand so that prices may fall, yet not realize what solution you will have once everyone that could purchase that particular item already purchased one.

At the same time, on my server, you could have 10 hauberks up for sale and the price never seem to have decreased. It only increases with time. Again, not sure what exactly this is going to do, but in small quantities, it won't do anything and in large flood quantities, you're going to destroy crafting stability by having too many items (which were meant to be rare) in the hands of many people which will immediately drop the worth of the item.

True and untrue.
That our sun will go nova, and anyone living in the solar system will die a cruel death...more or less a fact. It's also a couple of milion life times away, which is also true.

When we talk about short-term medium, and long term, we have to keep things in perspective. In the end, it does reflect the real world, and neither I or SE really cares unless a crash hits in the next 4 months.. FFxi is not expected to last long enough for a market to crash. IF not SE changing the game with every update, shifting it around, people would leave before there was ever a crash.

There is also the fact that dispite what people think. The "market" is a self-correcting mechism and thus the orginal poster is most likely wrong because of this fact. The more you interfere with it, the more you can screw it up. Empirical evidence both in real world and FFxi proves this.

Every update, we get something, and some growing pains..it's usually what happens when you mess with the market, but it's the cost we bare for new equipment, BCNMs, NMs, etc. It displaces someone..maybe all of a sudden your sole fishing income turns to mush...it always happens

If you think the economy is bad now, wait till ToA...it's going to be really messy then, count on it.

To sum it up bascially. The fastest way to fix an "market" is to do nothing and fix it itself. It hurts(and some countries it has killed before it can heal).

This is where SE comes in, and no one else. Players do not have foresight, or the power(being on the inside) to "fix" things or rather more economically speaking (to lessen the burden on the suffering) when the market decides to come down on them. SE tries to please "everyone" without screwing it up worse. That's heck of a lot better them some of the suggestions I've heard from regular players.

[(Takemuke)]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

I think we need to make sure this post is better seen on the forum, because of the fact that is not only enjoying to read, but also brings people's ideas together to help fix one of FFXI's biggest problems.

It WAS enjoying to read... but after the 34324508745 post about it, it got a little bit overdone.

[Enialas]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Fire Ore : Supply 1 Going Rate : 250k

2 weeks later

Fire Ore : Supply 21 Going Rate : 580k

wtf!?
well it's actually good for me so i only need to sell 1 Fire Ore to be able to afford the Erase Spell Scroll.

FFXI isn't a true supply-demand model though in most aspects it is one. maybe this was just a bad example?

[Lakai]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Most crafters make marginal profits on SH to begin with, the main dictation of sh price from my gatherings is the influx of how many Venomous claws are on sale, or are being put on sale. Usually a regular SH sells for almost the same amount as a Ven. Claw on my server, leaving a small profit unless the crafter HQs. i think the only way to really fix the economy is to make everything worthless...(rare/ex) to where you can't sell it to anyone else, which means everyone would have to pull their own weight and get their own stuff. This would mean drop rates would be increased and perhaps long wait times would get cut down maybe a little bit. But I don't know too much about this stuff; that is my 2 cents regardless though.

[Karinya]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Making everything EX would be insane. Crafting would become an even bigger money sink (you can't sell ANYTHING?) and also necessary - if you want any crafted item you'd have to skill up and craft it yourself. And Altana help the person who wants a SH *and* a Haub... getting the materials would be the easy part.


The economy isn't broken. It works fine. Not everyone has everything they want because drop rates are deliberately set low so that certain items will be hard to get. People that work harder for them have a better chance of getting them - either as drops directly, or by getting the materials and commissioning a synth, or by collecting stuff other people want and selling it at AH.

Gilsellers subvert the system by offering to trade your RL money to have them make the in-game effort to make gil, but even they are adding useful items to the economy; they have to. Eliminating gilsellers wouldn't eliminate inflation. Their gil isn't magic, it comes from selling things they farm/camp - which means ultimately it comes from other players.

How many people on this thread even know what economics *is*, or the difference between money and wealth, or other basic economic concepts? Did the person who posted "Hey Adam Smith, your system doesn't work" even know what Adam Smith said? (FWIW, we don't in fact have Adam Smith's system in FFXI. Crafting skillup is a HUGE entry barrier, which is exactly what he recommended NOT having.)

The amount of gil in circulation certainly seems to be higher than it was a year ago. SE *is* doing something about the problem, though - restructuring AH fees, introducing Dynamis, outpost teleports, NPC items raising in price after they are bought out are all ways of draining more gil out of the economy. They don't want to overdo it and crash the global gil supply and cripple the economy, so they take baby steps and people whine because the problem isn't fixed yet.

Regardless, the devaluation of gil does not imply that the economy is broken. Gil is just another commodity - one that happens to be worth much less than it was a year or two ago.

The amount of fire crystals, or beehive chips, or darksteel ores it takes to buy a haubergeon, Ochiudo's kote, or a scroll of Erase is not that different than it ever was. It's only from a gil-centered perspective that it looks like things are out of control.

Every day, people sell items they have and don't need to buy items they need and don't have. That's the economy. Working.

[kuu]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Fire Ore : Supply 1 Going Rate : 250k

2 weeks later

Fire Ore : Supply 21 Going Rate : 580k

wtf!?
well it's actually good for me so i only need to sell 1 Fire Ore to be able to afford the Erase Spell Scroll.

FFXI isn't a true supply-demand model though in most aspects it is one. maybe this was just a bad example?

Almost nothing in real-life is a true supply vs demand model. If it was, we wouldn't need more then 1 economics class.

It is a lot closer then real-world though, which makes apply economics easier, because we have less varibles when trying delve into it, liek not needing to know about banking system, because we don't have banking in ffxi.

for example:

basically s vs d structure assumes that everyone has perfect knowledge of the market, and has instanteious transaction, and transportation. Well real world is more complicated, with those above...but ffxi is a lot closer.

Or the biggie, identical products. There is no bad SH. They are all stat the same, no depriciation at all. there is no "New" and "used". We don't need to throw in complicated stuff that fuzzes numbers.

We have a price history, and AH+ moogle, which is an acturate if not complete system, and sell/bidding takes less the 3 seconds, with ffxi, going to jueno no more then half an hour or less, or instant commication with friends "near AH".

The "not true" part is FFxi's NPC system and other assortments. They floor or ceiling a price, because no matter how rare chainmail is, it'll not go above 20k because bastok sells it for 18k. Same with selling off... But that's part of economics too. Active government control to intenally promote something is nothing new. Tax's, subsidizing, etc.

As I mentioned the market is very rough on the poor, the slow, the weak, etc...in basic terms, the minority gets shafted. SE helps the poor when it can, but like any governing being, it's trying to be even handed, and not just give away free peakcock's to anyone making 20k a day.

FFxi economy worse pretty well, the only problem is updates, which causes "fluctuations" it's changing the rules. Like how hockey rules changed. At first everyone is doing screwy, but as people astart adapt it goes back down.

And what is posted above is quite natural. prices go up, people want to cash in, more stock comes, and it reaches the point where people have to lower prices or it won't sell. You just had it in the middle.

Gilseller like I said is more of of RL problem then ffxi problem. $1 = 7yuan is a heck of a way to let people get cheap labor out of others. Why farm 100k when you can buy it? and spend a minute of expense. even at $7/hr minium wage in NA, that's like pennies at prices gilsellers are giving you.