Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

[aegina]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

i wonder... what sorta things can SE actually DO to fix the economy...?

[DrivenTooFar]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Like most people on this thread I agree with your idea and would love to see something like this happen also. Of course there is no way this could happen but it was a nice idea.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

I don't remember mentioning about dropping items. I said to collectively set a price that is reasonable to sell.

Why must people be so greedy can't they see its self-destruction?

Did I say you said anything about dropping items? No. I didn't. I was speaking more of people in general dropping items in town instead of giving it away or selling it to an NPC. (I don't mean items that can't be sold or traded either.)

Nor did I say I disagree with the thread's original post.

[Deviantkat]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Why isn't there just a gil bank in which your gil makes interest at an equal rate to a calculated approximate server inflation rate? Things might still get more expensive, but at least you'd be able to keep raw gil without it constantly becoming devalued by market inflation.

To be quite honest though, i would like to see some sort of governing body. Maybe not in the form that you describe Plenum, but your idea is something that a game government could be based off of. You're entirely right that FFXI's economy is a laisser-faire capitalist economy. The sheer buying power that many rich players (many of them gilsellers) have is astounding. They can easily shape the price of an item at will by buying it out and resell it for profit at an increased price. As soon as one person pays the new rate, the new price is fair game and chances are it won't go down.

However, this isn't the end of the world. By the very laws of supply and demand you suggested, inflation will also cause the farmed items many people make money off of, raising the income who uses farming for income, and thus, the average income of the server. Because of this, the players have greater buying power to get items at newly inflated prices. However, they also have the power to further increase item prices by making stupid decisions and buying items that have been inflated to exorbidant rates because they're too damn impatient to wait for them to come down in price a bit.

A governed economy could theoretically cut back on the power of richer players to simply shape the price of any item they choose. In theory, it would cut back on the inflation rate to some extent, which is still a good thing despite the added buying power of the players. The one thing I failed to mention before is that the consumers are always one step behind. They'll be saving their money up to pay for an item, but when they get enough to buy it, the item's already gone up. The less the inflation rate is, the less this will occur.

I don't really have a specific point but I'd just like to say that inflation isn't the end of the world, despite its effect. It would be nice to see it decrease, though. If anything, at least NPC prices are starting to become more reasonable XD. If prices go up I could care less, so long as my income goes up enough to match it.

[Aeni]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Many things don't work ... I'll get into that later tonight (I'm on a coffee break at work and really can't get into it at the moment)

[Plenum]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Did I say you said anything about dropping items? No. I didn't. I was speaking more of people in general dropping items in town instead of giving it away or selling it to an NPC. (I don't mean items that can't be sold or traded either.)

Nor did I say I disagree with the thread's original post.

Oh Sorry Draco I didn't understand what you exactly mean.


I've read your posts.
I do understand that all ideas don't work sometimes. I'm not going to force others to do this because that is wasted effort. I personally don't believe in convincing through words (not all the times at least). I will convince you that this will work by action. I've started a new linkshell at the moment I am taking my time trying to set up a working system on paper.

I really like your banking idea Deviantkat. Maybe SE should make a requirment of people who are extremely rich to become bankers. A program where you can see who took what and who invest what and use the rich players to use their money to pay up interest payments in exchange the rich players can get certain event items that shows that they are bankers or banker only items.
But let me try not to deviate from the main problem at hand - inflation.

I must say the interest rate idea is fantastic, SE should put in a system where you invest your money on your own Nation. This will be a catalyst to use signets and have pride for you nation. - Unity will somewhat happen because people have a common goal - If a nation is more powerful they can have higher return rates. This would be a way to not so much to control inflation but earn money from conquesting.

nanatsu, thank you for your advice. I must say that I still have faith in our FFXI members although they may not have faith in our community. I know something must be done soon or in the near future or else I foresee the end of FFXI in a short time.

Balfree, its true but sad that you can solve problems with $10.00 US. But is this right thinking? In real life if we want something we should fight for it. We have to strive for it by whatever means it takes. How honorable or good will you feel if you paid it off? It's just the terrible mindset young people have these days. Money solves short term problems but create long term problems. Long Term problems cannot be solved with money in most cases.
- I ask myself this question, Do we play MMORPG to get away from real life and do whatever the hell we want and cant do in real life? Or do we use it as a model to the right things we dont see happening in real life?


I do fear one thing with power. No matter how balanced the system might be (as in America's system) there will be shady things going on. For the most part most people cannot handle power yet if no one is given power things wont work. We have to choose one or the other and go with it. I am still studying how to do this.


If you guys are wondering why I would spend time studying how to fix inflation, work on a new governance system, and try to see a answer to this problem is that it works a long the lines of my Economic thesis papers. MMORPG is unique in that it is much like a new world, new governance. It is much like an expieremental governing problem. Where you create a totally new independent state throw a bunch of people in it and see what they do. Obviously we see that if there is no governing power chaos happens. Chaos is good only when it is harnessed and controlled. This also proves the fact that for the most part when people are given the opportunity to run the free market it doesn't work. The rich get richer the poor get poorer and there is no middle class. (Sorry Adam Smith your theory isn't perfect). MMORPG is truly unique I do not believe other MMORPGS went to the length of implementing a unique governing system where the people use their minds to work together.

Togetherness, is it not what online play is meant to be?

[Kailo]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Well, I can tell you that togetherness isn't what most people have in mind when they travel to the AH. If a system were to be implemented, and changes made, it would have to be forced on the player. SE will have to deal with the problem themselves, by making direct changes.

I actually like Balfree's idea, using something of a "Consumable Goods Market" or like a farmer's market for FFXI, just with regulations. Maybe make nice Rare/EX items given as rewards for use of it? Nothing major, but nice things that would definitely make undercutting worth it (Rare/EX upgraded consumables maybe, with an increased effect or length over the original? That would tie into the theme of this market as well), and thus force the people inflating to decrease and match it.

But to be honest, if you want things fixed, you need to bring it up with SE, not the players. Now, convincing the players to band together and help get SE to make changes is another thing. That sort of thing just might work.

[JeanRC]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

i once though of a GIL BANK that i want to make lol.
like if u want to borrow 1million gil from me then u need to put some item that worth 1.2-1.5M in market price to me as a deposit. and u have like maybe 2week to -1month or whatever to pay me back 1.5M + a little interest to me. if not i will take the item and sell it .

Double Post Edited:
if only square make most or all weapons and armor to EX then the need of gil and gil seller and etc will be so much better lol

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

SE needs to do this: (This is a damn good, original idea)

Crafters can buy rare/ex, renamed versions of Dama Ingot, Venom Claw, Dama cloth, Divine Log, Dragon talons, and Behemonth Leather(if I missed any inflatied item, you know what I mean) with GP. Then they should make a recipe, with no HQ, that is idenical to the normal synth, but with that rare/ex item taking its place. Call them something like "Guild Quality Divine Log". The GP price of these items shouldn't be that high at all. Maybe like... 1-2 weeks worth of hardwork and less than half it would take to get your apron.

What would this do? Many things:
-Crafters wouldn't have to rely on these items entirely. Gil Sellers are the main supplier of these items as well. The demand and price will drop, so that crafters will buy them at good prices and inflation will drop.
-There will be more armor(at cheaper cost as well because of materials themselves dropping price), dropping the price for adventurers who want to buy them. Hauberk's price would also drop, which is a big problem.
-Crafters will gain a profit from the items.
-Crafters will not LOSE a lot when they fail.
-Crafters will support lower level Crafters who are selling possible GP items on AH.

You should be a Vetern to use the service. Anyway, if SE would implement that, I'm sure just about everyone would say "Woot!".

Double Post Edited:
Another problem is SE is moving items to BCNMs from NMs (Good), but making the drop rates on the BCNMs very poor (Bad!). SE needs to increase the drop rates of these BCNMs so the prices of the items drop. It should be 1/3 for Archer rings, 1/4 for emperor hairpin, 1/4 for leaping boots, and 1/6 for Peacock charm(this is like 1/32 for god sake). O-Kotes need to be given this service too with a 1/3-4 dropping rate(let it drop from Yagudo, Orc, and Quadav BCNMs I'd say).

[nanatsu]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Well one thing I noticed from the interviews is that SE seems to enjoy making the best armor hard to get. They don't seem to want everyone to have a scorpion harness or haberk x_x so honestly I don't think they would do anything that would make that armor more common, even if it brought the prices down. Not xaying it's not a good idea, because it's a great idea. Just going by how SE has been operating I just don't believe they would implement it.

[Aeni]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

SE needs to do this: (This is a damn good, original idea)

Crafters can buy rare/ex, renamed versions of Dama Ingot, Venom Claw, Dama cloth, Divine Log, Dragon talons, and Behemonth Leather(if I missed any inflatied item, you know what I mean) with GP. Then they should make a recipe, with no HQ, that is idenical to the normal synth, but with that rare/ex item taking its place. Call them something like "Guild Quality Divine Log". The GP price of these items shouldn't be that high at all. Maybe like... 1-2 weeks worth of hardwork and less than half it would take to get your apron.

What would this do? Many things:
-Crafters wouldn't have to rely on these items entirely. Gil Sellers are the main supplier of these items as well. The demand and price will drop, so that crafters will buy them at good prices and inflation will drop.
-There will be more armor(at cheaper cost as well because of materials themselves dropping price), dropping the price for adventurers who want to buy them. Hauberk's price would also drop, which is a big problem.
-Crafters will gain a profit from the items.
-Crafters will not LOSE a lot when they fail.
-Crafters will support lower level Crafters who are selling possible GP items on AH.

You should be a Vetern to use the service. Anyway, if SE would implement that, I'm sure just about everyone would say "Woot!".

Double Post Edited:
Another problem is SE is moving items to BCNMs from NMs (Good), but making the drop rates on the BCNMs very poor (Bad!). SE needs to increase the drop rates of these BCNMs so the prices of the items drop. It should be 1/3 for Archer rings, 1/4 for emperor hairpin, 1/4 for leaping boots, and 1/6 for Peacock charm(this is like 1/32 for god sake). O-Kotes need to be given this service too with a 1/3-4 dropping rate(let it drop from Yagudo, Orc, and Quadav BCNMs I'd say).

BRP, your idea is really centered on just helping the common consumer, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but does nothing to alleviate the issues with the economy.

For example, having a recipe with no chance of HQ'ing ... any crafter worth his or her salt will immediately toss this proposition into the waste basket. Crafters make money from HQ versions of just about anything. They break even or incur losses on a normal synth, but an HQ or two can usually recoup a lot of the loss and most of the times provide the crafter with enough profit that they have an incentive to continue to ply their trade.

Also, the points you listed are pretty shortsighted. I don't know about other crafters here, but majority of the craftsmen that I know on my server insure their own craft is as efficient as possible. This means that many will synth their own GP items. Several have more than a couple of mules dedicated in holding the raw materials that will be used to synth a GP item. There is a database online, which keeps track of the guild item and tracks it with a pattern and players are able to forecast or predict an upcoming item. This allows them to hoard items that will obtain the most favorable GP ratio and thus reduces the need to get the items from the AH.

The only way you can stabilize the economy is by changing how the economy works fundamentally and you need to make changes in many places at once. By only changing a thing or two without regards to the whole, you'll end up screwing things big time. Like when SE removed Astral Rings totally from Coffer chests. Now, Astral Rings are insanely expensive. The only issue I had was that something of value should not be mixed in with AF pieces. Instead, SE went overboard and rather just simply relocating the item, they went and made it into some obscenely rare and expensive (in seals) game of chance. This is a shining example of the kinds of problems plaguing the game ...

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

It most costing piece of the equipment(the HNM drop) is lowered, they would make profit. Haub/Hauberk are paralyzing to DRK/SAM/WARs due to its big cost, and it is going up higher and higher. If they wanted to HQ(and get a lot of money) they would need to buy the costy material.

Peolpe don't usually buy CP items on AH, but they do.

Double Post Edited:

Okay. I bet you get "OMG MAKE DRG BETTER" and "KILL THE GIL SELLERS!" suggestions all the time, nonstop. Well anyway, here is an good, smart suggestion:

One of the leading problems of FFXI is the price of gear crafted from expensive HNM drops(ie: Hauberk). SE has tried to solve this in the pass by making BCNMs drop the items. However the drop rates are not too great, and the HNM will still be the prime source of drops. And guess what, its the gil sellers who are selling them. So what would be a good idea to help against the fight of overpriced armor and inflation? A concept I call "Guild Quality" materials. Guild Quality materials would be bought from GP(Guild Points) like the other furnishing, armors, or keyitems a Guild would normally offer. There would be one "Guild Quality"(GQ) item for a list of HNM drops materials. GQ items would be Exclusive(however, not Rare). This is how I would think it would work, but this is only a suggestion. Feel free to shape it your own will...

Blacksmith:
"GQ Damascus Ingot"

Goldsmith:
"GQ Orichalcum Ore"

Clothcraft:
"GQ Damascene Cloth"
"GQ Siren's Hair"

Leathercraft:
"Behemoth Hide"

Bonecraft:
"GQ Venomous Claw"
"GQ Dragon Talon"

Woodworking:
"GQ Divine Log"

(The list could be expanded I guess).

The key is the amount of CP that would be needed to be spent. If you make it cost too much, it will be more work than its worth(a common habit you guys do). A deticated GP trader shouldn't spend more than 1-3 weeks getting these items.

GQ Orichalum Ore and GQ Damascene Cloth - easiest to get. (.5 to 1 weeks for the very deticated trader).

GQ Siren's Hair and GQ Dragon Talon - not easy, but not too hard. (1 to 2 weeks for the very deticated trader).

GQ Damacus Ingot, GQ Divine Log, GQ Behemoth Hide, and GQ Venomous Claw - hard to get. (2 to 2.5 weeks for the very deticated trader).

Okay. After the items are released, you make alternate recipes for the items, with the GQ item replacing its HNM dropped counterpart. Now, if you want to make them unHQable, that wouldn't be a bad idea. However, if they were unHQable, I would make them slightly cheaper to get with CP.

What would this do?
-Crafters wouldn't have to buy super expensive items to make armor that everyone needs. If they fail and lose the item, they lose far less money.
-More NQ armor will appear and the market would become less demanding. This would help many, many people who need the armor. This would also lower the price the normal materials as well.
-Many people will like this change and see it as if SE cares. The only people being hurt by this are the gil sellers, who all but monopolize these items.

Thank you for listening.

I just sent this to SE ;o.

[Aeni]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

You're going to have crafters that will not be satisfied (But then again, there's always that kind of people out there) They will say, add these items too! Shining Cloth, Avatar Blood, Kunwu Ores, Angel Skin, etc.

Also, will NMs still drop the items normally? Then this is indeed a way for crafter's to make money, but how does this lower the price? Can you really be sure the crafter's won't just use the price history?

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

There will be more on the market, people will undercut, without a loss.

[Aeni]

Re: Just an Idea on Economy (Long Post)

Well, that also depends on how many crafters there are with the skills required to craft those items. On Hades, I think there's like maybe 3 to 5 players that I see actively synthing the higher end smithing items and selling on AH. Majority of smithers are either not interested in plying their trade, are too busy desynthing for profit (i.e., Quad Backplate > Darksteel Ingots) or don't have the necessary skill requirements to synth in the first place (i.e., I hope people do realize that you need more than just a high smithing skill to make something like a Haubergeon, which uses a lot of cloth materials)

If you look at it from that perspective and then look at the rate in which GP item dependant recipes are made, then you'll see how insignificant this increase in supply really is. Also note that, unlike a real world population, server population is pretty finite, with people leaving at about the same rate as people joining (At this mature stage in the game's lifespan) I really doubt XBox360 will bring in much more new customers, as majority of these players already own a PC version account.

Once you hit a threshold of people having what they need, you will hit critical mass at which the economy will just crumble under it's own weight. You're pushing for supply to outstrip demand so that prices may fall, yet not realize what solution you will have once everyone that could purchase that particular item already purchased one.

At the same time, on my server, you could have 10 hauberks up for sale and the price never seem to have decreased. It only increases with time. Again, not sure what exactly this is going to do, but in small quantities, it won't do anything and in large flood quantities, you're going to destroy crafting stability by having too many items (which were meant to be rare) in the hands of many people which will immediately drop the worth of the item.