absolute virtue popped and...

[Nodoka]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

I think the important question is:

Why is SE making encounters where 60+ people are needed, when only 18 can actively interact with a mob at one time. It sounds like bad game design and unless they're planning on expanding how many people can engage a mob, it should be considerably weaker.

[Macht]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

I think the important question is:

Why is SE making encounters where 60+ people are needed, when only 18 can actively interact with a mob at one time. It sounds like bad game design and unless they're planning on expanding how many people can engage a mob, it should be considerably weaker.

SE already stated that their development team tested it by actually fighting it, assumably using similar gear and stats available in game now. They were capable of beating it with something like 18-36 players, it isn't that they made the encounters to have 60+ people. What it is are the players who will not seek out the items to make the fight easier, they are just brute forcing their way through in which will cost 60+ or even 120+ players to do it then.

EDIT:

Yeah, I know 7 and 3 are common in many things related to god and such (Hell the index, middle, and ring finger forms a cross if you look at it right) and the common symbol for Jesus' crusifiction is 3 crosses. Not only Jesus rose on the 3rd day but Lazurith on the 3rd day and by the 3rd call of his name.

What I ment though is there is very few affiliations of 3 with the Stuff in SE they use 7 for affiliation a LOT more.

[Manatra]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

SE already stated that their development team tested it by actually fighting it, assumably using similar gear and stats available in game now. They were capable of beating it with something like 18-36 players, it isn't that they made the encounters to have 60+ people. What it is are the players who will not seek out the items to make the fight easier, they are just brute forcing their way through in which will cost 60+ or even 120+ players to do it then.

EDIT:

Yeah, I know 7 and 3 are common in many things related to god and such (Hell the index, middle, and ring finger forms a cross if you look at it right) and the common symbol for Jesus' crusifiction is 3 crosses. Not only Jesus rose on the 3rd day but Lazurith on the 3rd day and by the 3rd call of his name.

What I ment though is there is very few affiliations of 3 with the Stuff in SE they use 7 for affiliation a LOT more.

Also note, the people testing it probably had intimate knowledge of how the fight worked and/or were able to have as many goes at it as they wanted. Those two things make all the difference.

[Macht]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

Also note, the people testing it probably had intimate knowledge of how the fight worked and/or were able to have as many goes at it as they wanted. Those two things make all the difference.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Both of which can be covered with a little ingenuity and just simply observation. In either case though if you are throwing a huge number of players at it then obviously you haven't found the correct solution.

[Manatra]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

Yes, I'm aware of that. Both of which can be covered with a little ingenuity and just simply observation. In either case though if you are throwing a huge number of players at it then obviously you haven't found the correct solution.

Allow me to quote myself:

It's not that it's difficult. I'm sure 90% of the people don't mind the difficulty (though, I do have to question SEs creativity by just sticking a bunch of 2 hours on it and abilities designed to death touch you...).

The stupidity with AV is the way in which the pop system works. Non-guaranteed drops to pop the next tier of pop NMs that make it so you can only attempt JoL/AV once a month is stupid, and frustrating artificial delay that ranks up there with death touching monsters and blowable spawns (of which AV is ALSO).

Dying repeatedly to a really hard monster trying to figure out how to beat it = fun.
Doing hours upon hours of work to end up getting nothing due to drop rates = frustrating and not fun.

[Vinen]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

I think the important question is:

Why is SE making encounters where 60+ people are needed, when only 18 can actively interact with a mob at one time. It sounds like bad game design and unless they're planning on expanding how many people can engage a mob, it should be considerably weaker.

That all depends on if the adds that AV pops spawn claimed. If not, I can see the encounter being intended for > 1 alliance.

It's part of the games progression, there is only so much that SE can do at this point without making monsters more difficult by requiring more people.

I really really doubt 60+ people will be needed.

Also, remember there was a time when Kirin took people 40+ people to kill whereas now people understand the encounter and can drop him with one alliance.

[Macht]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

Mantara, my point is you only supplied 2 conditions don't even seem to consider a third option. I have a hard time believing that they are the only LS to fight JoL, maybe one of the few to see AV. In either case if they were to watch another LS fighting JoL and spot that LS doing something different that actually worked, then you can attempt to incorporate it in on their next attempt.

If you find something that makes JoL strategy easier you can apply more tests then to AV with a stronger group in the end. Then the same conditions hold true if they see another LS face AV. Point being that learning about the monster I don't see why it has to be when you fight it only, seems like you could observe other groups that try it and maybe pick up new ideas from them.

[Caspian]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

Mantara, my point is you only supplied 2 conditions don't even seem to consider a third option. I have a hard time believing that they are the only LS to fight JoL, maybe one of the few to see AV. In either case if they were to watch another LS fighting JoL and spot that LS doing something different that actually worked, then you can attempt to incorporate it in on their next attempt.

If you find something that makes JoL strategy easier you can apply more tests then to AV with a stronger group in the end. Then the same conditions hold true if they see another LS face AV. Point being that learning about the monster I don't see why it has to be when you fight it only, seems like you could observe other groups that try it and maybe pick up new ideas from them.

Problem is, a lot of the ls's want to be the first to take him down, so inter-LS communication isnt likely to be all that great right now. Now, is it SE's fault everyone wants to be the first to do it? No. But thats the way things are, right now anyway.

About the numbers, they may just use 7 since its the universal lucky number.

I cant imagine any other ls's trying to take him down w/o getting all the virtue weapons first now...obviously brute force wont do shit, why try a failing strategy again. If the weapons work, we could know in a few weeks.

[Feenicks]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

A winning strategy will be worked out, and it will be both lame and time-consuming. Then it will be refined into something that people can really use to take it down with minimal fuss.

Remember that back in the day, the strat for Kirin was to kite it for hours and hours until it ran out of MP, then slaughter it. Think how far Kirin fights have come since then. AV will be the same, first impression: impossible, first strat: terrible, after that, people will work things out.

[DM337]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

But finding a strategy to beat AV is much different than finding a strategy to beat say... Tiamat. When Tiamat was put into the game, you could fight him, wipe, raise, and then try again. You could even try again the next day if you screwed up again, assuming no one else managed to beat it before then. Not so with AV. Not only is it incredibly hard to pop, it might be a month between fights. Also, Jailer of Love needs to be killed for AV to pop. It took a Japanese force of several Linkshells to take JoL down. The only two other attempts on JoL I know of is BG's fight and a recent attempt by Feather, what I hear to be the most godly JP LS on Phoenix. Both lost. Not very fun when you need to wait a month or more to try out a new strategy that may end up in another wipe anyway.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

lol this may be rather corny, but it would be pretty awesome if you could just pop jailers and they would help you out ;o.

[pantherball]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

lol BRP jailer NPC's xD hmmm i think i'ma go solo in ifrits cauldren as level 5 with my jailer :-D

[Aeni]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

lol this may be rather corny, but it would be pretty awesome if you could just pop jailers and they would help you out ;o.

This was from WOW, but the same won't hold true unless all MMORPG designers do look at their competitors for inspiration ...

I know a quest where you're fighting a massive crowd in an instance. Those of you ever heard of Colonel Custard's Last Stand? My god, it was chaotic and my party succombed and wiped.

However, there were NPCs to help out. Because this instance does not allow for more than 5 players in a party, it was the only way.

The NPCs were no push overs either.

But anyway, I'll just keep a loose ear to this whole AV thing and see how it turns out. Again, people should really stop complaining about this fight and how it's so difficult to get there, blah blah blah. I actually liked how difficult it is to get into CoP areas like Tavnazia because it makes it that much more special. The people in Sea should not take their efforts for granted and just be glad they are where they are right now, the pioneers of the pioneers of players in Vana'Diel.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

I don't think you quite get it. The jailers are holding AV hidden, so when you kill them all, he is unlocked. I would think they would try to stop him if they were face to face.

[Manatra]

Re: absolute virtue popped and...

But anyway, I'll just keep a loose ear to this whole AV thing and see how it turns out. Again, people should really stop complaining about this fight and how it's so difficult to get there, blah blah blah. I actually liked how difficult it is to get into CoP areas like Tavnazia because it makes it that much more special. The people in Sea should not take their efforts for granted and just be glad they are where they are right now, the pioneers of the pioneers of players in Vana'Diel.

The thing is, it isn't challenging, the process to spawn Jailer of Love is long, stupid and full of artificial time sinks (which != fun). Challenge in the form of truly hard fights is fun, artificial challenge in having non 100% pop items for the next tier of monsters is not fun.