Acc Vs. Dex

[Stromgarde]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

You know, the easy way to figure this out would be to find the exact threshold for Low Evasion / Flat Evasion on a mob and then set acc to flat evasion, then add dex until it checks low evasion.

[kuu]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

You know, the easy way to figure this out would be to find the exact threshold for Low Evasion / Flat Evasion on a mob and then set acc to flat evasion, then add dex until it checks low evasion.

That's only assuming that the check is giving you a flat linear rate, and an exact rate.

As many things done over the years, SE seems to not like to do that. Damage reduction recently has shown some interesting things on that.

2ndly this has to also be assumed that dex and only dex mattered. Without seeing the orginal test experiments, we don't know exactly how controlled they were. As a lot of things could taint it through the ages of word of mouth passing

And again that is fickle that how much acc needed is of another matter altogether.

Edit:
Oh, and also, even if I myself talked about so and so interviews, take them worth what they are worth. Interviews, in one point in time. They may no longer hold true with each passing update.

For example: the infamous SMN skill interview that claims it only effect elementals, and not avatars was dated July, 04(source:warcry) with an added note that they were "Thinking of ways to improve SMN." If you recall your timeline, the Oct04 update was the SMN change, and a minor change a few months after that.

This essentially means that any truth in that interview can be taken with a grain of salt, no matter the source.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

Sorry.. I dont agree with Dex = Accuracy. Yet im not certain of it. I think Dex = Critical Hit Rate, Agi = Evasion, Ranged Accuracy bonus. I will explain why i think that. Im a Thief50 atm, and I have more DEX then most, maybe more then all jobs at my level. Also, I use an Accuracy+5 Dagger(Bone Knife +1), but i still miss a lot! Why would i miss so much with all the Dex I have? Deft Rings x2, Brigandine+1(borrowed though^^)... I think Accuracy comes just from Accuracy+ gear. I do have a lot of Critical Hits though^^.

[kuu]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

Sorry.. I dont agree with Dex = Accuracy. Yet im not certain of it. I think Dex = Critical Hit Rate, Agi = Evasion, Ranged Accuracy bonus. I will explain why i think that. Im a Thief50 atm, and I have more DEX then most, maybe more then all jobs at my level. Also, I use an Accuracy+5 Dagger(Bone Knife +1), but i still miss a lot! Why would i miss so much with all the Dex I have? Deft Rings x2, Brigandine+1(borrowed though^^)... I think Accuracy comes just from Accuracy+ gear. I do have a lot of Critical Hits though^^.

As I mentioned before, it is more likely crit rate is determined by dex vs agi +(eq, merits, etc)

Acc is a fickle thing also I mentioned. Fighting monsters above and below your level has weird effects to acc. Just like you can miss on a lvl 10 monster.

Past research done on similar topics yield that it's a loaded average of a normal distribution curve(bell curve).

The more you stack it, the lesser the gain, until it reaches a point where you can have all the acc in the world and miss.

This is somewhat where having crit items helps because Crit is a sure hit.

Also add in that +acc is worth crap as you go higher in level(or low def, high eva monster). This is why they made sushi = +acc%

[Kittyneko]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

Hey.. youre right about that! "Dex is a sure hit" BUT!! The question is... will the question "Will it be a critical hit?" come BEFORE you start hitting the mob... or after x.x..

System brains example: Hit? Yes/no ---->If yes, a Critical hit? Yes/no
System brains example #2? Critical Hit? Yes/no ----> Hit at all? Yes/no

[kuu]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

Hey.. youre right about that! "Dex is a sure hit" BUT!! The question is... will the question "Will it be a critical hit?" come BEFORE you start hitting the mob... or after x.x..

System brains example: Hit? Yes/no ---->If yes, a Critical hit? Yes/no
System brains example #2? Critical Hit? Yes/no ----> Hit at all? Yes/no

It is a hard way to test it, so who knows. The problem with it is crit rate is usually so low, it's hard to guess. The way I would try to test it, is to use a level 75 character with a zero skill weapon and a max skill weapon, and test the crit rates (which the low skill weapon hopefully doesn't skill up too fast)

But from guessing, I would say crit happens before it is consider a hit, i.e ->Sure hit.

This is from the idea that sneak attack main/sub always hit, and has very similar effects to critical. Where snack attack main is generally thought as crit+dex bonus, and sub = no dex bonus.

[Takemura-san]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

heh as sam acc is a must but dex is too soo >.> its kinda warped but wuts sam's MUST is WS acc o.O

[Armando]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

I'm still not very convinced 2 DEX = 1 Accuracy...unfortunately I don't have the equipment or gil to try it out. My line of thinking is this...when solo, I notice significant differences in accuracy against DCs, EMs, and Ts (I know if a T is low T by wether it's low defense or not.) Now, on A rank weapons pre-60 your cap goes up by 3 each level. So, I use this as a reference of sorts. If 3 Accuracy can make such a noticeable difference, to the point that, in theory, with a bit over 15 Accuracy you could almost match an IT's evasion perfectly, why doesn't my girlfriend, being a Mithra THF and having nearly 20 DEX more than me (I'll have to get the actual difference later) not have a painfully higher accuracy? I mean, her accuracy is good since she has a bit of +accuracy equipment (mainly her knives) but not THAT good. Similarly I've always had practically equal accuracy to Mithran WARs...I'm also one very prone to wearing things like Brave Belt and the giant series of bracelets which lower DEX, and STR rings, while most other melees prefer DEX equipment. Perhaps it IS possible to achieve a meaningful accuracy increase through DEX, but I really don't think the relationship is that convenient nor that powerful. It IS pretty interesting how criticals always land, though...kinda redeems DEX (which I don't hold very high as a useful stat to me) a bit.

Either way I still think that when given the choice of STR vs DEX, STR is usually the better option, especially in the lower-mid levels when you don't have access to crazy equipments that can easily grant +5-10 to a stat.

By the way, I recall an old post in the WAR forums where Biggok attempted to find the DEX/AGI/ACC/EVA relationships. He pretty much concluded DEX-Acc and AGI-Eva work as a curve, with the higher your Acc/Eva being the more DEX/AGI you need to raise it another point. He posted his data but I never was able to see where he drew that conclusion from... here's the thread. http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...ccuracy+solved

[kuu]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

I'm still not very convinced 2 DEX = 1 Accuracy...unfortunately I don't have the equipment or gil to try it out. My line of thinking is this...when solo, I notice significant differences in accuracy against DCs, EMs, and Ts (I know if a T is low T by wether it's low defense or not.) Now, on A rank weapons pre-60 your cap goes up by 3 each level. So, I use this as a reference of sorts. If 3 Accuracy can make such a noticeable difference, to the point that, in theory, with a bit over 15 Accuracy you could almost match an IT's evasion perfectly, why doesn't my girlfriend, being a Mithra THF and having nearly 20 DEX more than me (I'll have to get the actual difference later) not have a painfully higher accuracy? I mean, her accuracy is good since she has a bit of +accuracy equipment (mainly her knives) but not THAT good. Similarly I've always had practically equal accuracy to Mithran WARs...I'm also one very prone to wearing things like Brave Belt and the giant series of bracelets which lower DEX, and STR rings, while most other melees prefer DEX equipment. Perhaps it IS possible to achieve a meaningful accuracy increase through DEX, but I really don't think the relationship is that convenient nor that powerful. It IS pretty interesting how criticals always land, though...kinda redeems DEX (which I don't hold very high as a useful stat to me) a bit.

Either way I still think that when given the choice of STR vs DEX, STR is usually the better option, especially in the lower-mid levels when you don't have access to crazy equipments that can easily grant +5-10 to a stat.

By the way, I recall an old post in the WAR forums where Biggok attempted to find the DEX/AGI/ACC/EVA relationships. He pretty much concluded DEX-Acc and AGI-Eva work as a curve, with the higher your Acc/Eva being the more DEX/AGI you need to raise it another point. He posted his data but I never was able to see where he drew that conclusion from... here's the thread. http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...ccuracy+solved

Read up on my point on people that have research the area point to a normal distrobution curve, i.e bell curve.

Acc as a number is just that a number. How much (percentage) of your attack hit, is another matter altogether.

[Drogen_Shomuro]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

I'd like to throw out a hypothesis:

I've been casually observing str vs. atk for sometime now, and while adding 2 str most definately adds 1 atk, it isn't that simple a matter as to which is better. To me it feels like both stats are equally important to raise the amount of dmg done. In other words, having ridiculous amounts of str with low atk still yields crap dmg, but adding a little str when atk is already high adds alot.

So what if dex and acc followed the same pattern?
I'm sure you've all noticed a time where, even if the mob checks as "low evasion" you still miss a significant amount. Perhaps adding dex in this situation would improve hit rate alot more. This could also explain why "I'm a thf with 100+ dex and I still miss alot" if the mob doesn't check as low eva yet.

Maybe the formula is something like
(your dex - mob agi + some constant) * (your acc /mob eva) * (some random modifier) = hit rate

I can be pretty sure about the (your acc / mob eva) part, because 10 acc seems to make a much bigger difference at lvl 40 than lvl 70. The rest is just speculation.

[Macht]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

Hmm, didn't expect my statement on the DEX to spin out all this. If you want the general statements there actually isn't much that states what controls Parry, Evasion, Shield, and Guard. Nothing of actual testing I've ever seen done, however for Acc. there is quite a bit showing that DEX does help it but at 2 DEX it is like .7% boost (Again only varried to 1 situation, not considering anything of what can applied as diminishing returns here also as you advance).

If you want my personal opinion on it I believe there is a lead control and assist control. For the stats suchs as Accuracy (Range or Normal) I believe it's lead control to be DEX, but gets an assist from AGI the benefits of the assist are better the closer the DEX and AGI are equal to eachother.

In this same statment is why I placed Parry, Shield, and Guard as DEX. Those three seem to use it as it's lead control with AGI being an assist, in the same flip of it Evasion I've seen AGI being it's lead control and DEX being it's assist.

If you want to base these stats on what SE gives you a hint for then SE states Accuracy to be controlled by DEX.

Red=Fire=STR
Purple=Thunder=DEX
Yellow=Earth=VIT
Green=Wind=AGI
Light Blue=Ice=INT
Dark Blue=Water=MND
White/Black=Light/Dark=CHR (Yes, CHR controls 2 so it controls itself think of it as a YingYang setup or even Moon Phase)

Now with what SE shows:

Attack Bonus (Red)
Accuracy Bonus (Purple)
Defense Bonus (Yellow)
Evasion Bonus (Green)
Magic Attack Bonus (Light Blue)
Magic Defense Bonus (Dark Blue)

Then if you want to go with stats you can see each skill dominated by a specific stat, it's lead stat. Which relooking, I may have reconsider Shielding being DEX as it does seem to appear to be AGI I'll have to relook at my info to make sure I didn't confuse this one.

You take Guard and many of the items that give +Guard has a chance of also giving +DEX, same with Parry. Shield and Evasion when you look at those two are dominated by +AGI. This setup actually makes sense seeing it now because it's going with SE's classical 2 sceme they do almost throughout this game. Even WSs have been tested and shown to be controlled by 2 stats one generally it's lead and another being it's assist.

[fuz]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

All conspiracy theories.

Dex does help acc, but it is not known if it works the same way as the mess of str/vit/attack/defense/weapon ratings for damage dealt/received which is extremely convoluted due to the large range of variable damage. Acc is just one result, hit or miss.

It's been tested before, by seeing how mobs con, and how much dex or acc it takes to change its evasion from one level to the next. So far dex itself is known to work in a linear fashion, so does acc. Adding more either stat, or both at once does not seem to produce a curve; like attack which boosts damage exponentially as it increases.

Further, every melee knows there is some sort of level modifier that affects hit% that can't be explained by the difference in dex alone.

[JeanRC]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

i heard long ago that 2dex is 1 acc sometimes is 3 dex.
mostly only thf need dex eq. if not most others melee go for str or acc depending on jobs. if you are using multi hit ws for renkei, of cos acc > the str to a certain extend till u are able to hti well with your multi hit ws.
There are a lot of ways to do things.
Example from my point of view, when charging up tp, use acc gear.
When about to renkei with ws, if i am doing multi hit ws, use mostly acc gear and maybe some str gear.
when about to renkei with ws, if i am doing single hit ws, use mostly str gear and some acc gear.
logic in this is simple. multi hit ws = u need more acc to land all or most ws hit to do more damage.
single hit = 1 hit ws so having a lot of acc wount help damage but is str that help it.So of cos all this different gear help you in different ways in a fight or pt. it all boil down to gil to buy all the items that help you and of cos you need to know how and what to buy that may help you in what ways.

A lot of people may think PLD only need VIT/HP/DEF gear.
But my pld 66+ has tons of gear when pting.
like acc gears, VIT+DEF gear,HP gear and evem MP gear.
acc gears for PLD may help you when u are fighting some IT- or lower monster to hit more and better to get some more hate and at the same time get TP to help renkei or use ws to damage a little to get more hate.
Some people may say PLD cant do damage or dont do damage.
Yes they dont do a lot of damage compare to other melee job but doing a little by little may help. specially if u are in renkei and u are first to go.
Example at lv 66PLD i get the Lv225+ 1 hand sword ws that can link with DRK lv 225+ scythe ws for dark renkei that can give 1:1 DRK ws : renkei effect damage.It all depend on what is your party jobs. If the other melee cant renekei well with the DRK , doing the renkei with PLD i said above is good since it give a high renkei effect damage and blm can MB easily and more too with dark renkei.

I dont think i need to touch on the part of def/VIT gear for my pld as it plain simple.

Now for HP gear, HP gear are well known in tanking hard hitting HNM/GOD
GOD like byakko. It also help in doing more damage using spirit within ws.
for level up party i only use HP gear when i am doing spirit within ws.

So now is MP gear, people may ask why PLD need mp gear ;p
yea they actually dont. But it will help a bit more if u have it and know when to use it. For me i usually use it before start of battle and while resting.
so that i can boost my mp to above 400+ with my current mp gear.
so while we start our first chain i got 400+mp compare to 200+ mp without using mp gear. that makes an extra 200mp to cure myself etc.
People may say with those mp gear, u have less def. yes less def but u are using those mp to cure yourself up at that time so it is helping you and extra 20 or so in battle. of cos u need to switch gear one by one once the mp for that gear is used up.
Example , let say i have 420mp when using mp gear, and 1 of my mp gear is ether ring 40hp to 40mp. so during fighting i cure myself etc and use up some mp and my mp now is abt 380mp so this is the time u switch your ether ring away with your VIT ring or the -5% physical damage ring to max what your mp/def gear and do it for the others mp gear too once your mp are lower more to enhance your mp and def gear.
All this does help at least to me ;p in someway or some times when i need it.
All this depend on your "skills", knowledge, experience in ff etc to help you boost a step better or ever 2-3 step better then the other PLD seeking or other jobs

[Macht]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

In the end much of what you choose is all a balance. A good example to show this is a thread on Rampage done before.

New Rampage/Decimation evaluation on VT

You can see clearly that his focus to push Accuracy reduced the effectiveness damage wise, his gear and setup was hitting a point were less focus to accuracy on the gear and more to attack/STR benefited better.

[Takemura-san]

Re: Acc Vs. Dex

ah this is all great infromation for a number of jobs but as a melee though and though i have noticed that yes crits do happen with acc+ but with dex+ i hit more often as my sam i try to balance ALL stats but its kinda hard with only so many equips but i'll research an test this out on my server on mobs an in ballista [dont think ballista matters tho] an i wish u all gl with ur theories.