Is it ok to steal from RMT?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

What if the prostitute in question was without STDs, and did her business in the privacy of her own home, by her own management, without the need of the said drug dealers? Agian, no one is affected, everything is fine and no one is bothered.

For your proposed situation to play out correctly, everything has to line up. The hooker has to have AIDs, the men must spread it, there has to be drugs involved, which cause crime and property values to go down.

And suppose I do go with your situation, and because of the Hookers, the whole city is affected. They police would go out and stop them from doing their activites BECAUSE they are affecting everyone.

The same principle applies to RMT.

Have you ever been to the inner city? Prostitutes, for the majority, do not conduct their business out of their homes. Hell many of the don't even have homes. That means they are out on the streets plying their trade. Since many are drug addicts, the dealers are out there too keeping the supply flowing. That is the reality of it. I am quite knowledgable about the social problems of the inner city. I've worked with prostitutes, pimps, drug addicts, and drug dealers.

STD's are VERY common among prostitutes and they may not even know they have it. Some do and just don't care. Some prostitutes use condoms but most do not because of the cost involved. The free clinics have to put a limit on the number of condoms you can get a week here. So there are many prostitutes with STD's having unprotected sex. And even with a condom, they do break or get holes in them. The men they have sex with do not know they have STD's and then sleep with other prostitutes or g/f's/wives. This is reality.

Even if a prostitute does not have STD's, she still is part of the problem with the crime rate in the city so police man hours are eaten up just by her doing her job. Even if she did work out of her home, it is still a crime. The police can haul in prostitutes and drug dealers all they want, there is always another one waiting in the wings to take that ones place. And its not as if the legal system keeps them off the streets long either. So yes property values diminish drastically and the crime rate escalates.

Your statement about her doing it out of her home, managing herself, and not using drugs is about 1% at most of the entire population of prostitutes. So my post was quite accurate and probably happens in at least 10 major cities every day.

[lionx]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

Well if you have the right to impose on them then dont complain when they impose on you too no matter who is first that did it. This poll makes me sad D: Also dont complain if a non-RMTer imposes you too because its the same principle.

[Auron517]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

It is justified to impose on RMT by doing things like MPK because the exploit the game on such a severe level. You can't apply the same tactics used on RMTs to any old person running around you have a problem with.

Grandmom, I acknowledged in my last post that everything you said is accurate. However, I think my point is still valid. Because prostitution does all these bad things like spreading AIDs and increasing the crime rate and what not, some one must step in and stop their actions that are causing harm to those around them.

I just don't get why it's so hard to see my point. People bitch and complain about how the economy on their server is so fucked up and how everything is expensive, how they can't go after certain NMs because Gilsellers are there, and if you get claim they'll steal it or MPK you.

But when I step up and say that it is reasonable to do everthing in your power to stop or hinder them from doing any more harm to the game you pay money for every month to experience, i'm suddenly the thing that's wrong with FFXI?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

Because prostitution does all these bad things like spreading AIDs and increasing the crime rate and what not, some one must step in and stop their actions that are causing harm to those around them.

And your entirely warping the parameters of our discussion. The original question was:

Is it okay to rape a hooker?

This is in comparison to stealing from a RMT. Raping breaks the law even though the person on the recieving end is breaking the law doing their job. RMT is against the FFXI "laws" and so is stealing. You noted it wasn't a valid analogy by saying:

No, it's not okay to rape anyone.

What exactly are you trying to say here? I don't see how raping a hooker compares to striking back at the RMT that ruin the game for everyone.

How does a hooker who has sex for money affect you personally? None.
How does RMT affect your FFXI playing experience? Plenty.

I then established that prostitution does affect other people, many other people in the long run. I even made a comparison showing how RMT can affect the FFXI community and compared the similarities of the two.

But for some reason you tried to paint a rosey picture on prostitution. I don't see what it has to do with the discussion we were having though. So back to the original statement about rape and stealing. Both are wrong and against "laws". So which one is better than the other? Neither. In the end, they both break the "laws" and harm someone, whether they are someone you like or not. Trying to justify that you can take the "law" into your own hands and do whatever you like because you don't care for something that someone does is just asinine.

So the original comment"

Is it okay to rape a hooker?

stands up quite well to the current subject. Also note your statement:

No, it's not okay to rape anyone.

Why? Because it hurts another person and is against the law? Stealing from ANYONE hurts another person and is against the FFXI "laws". Six of one, half a dozen of another.

[JeanRC]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

some RMT/GS are good players too. i know a number of RMT/GS and know some that is helpful and is much better then most people playing ffxi.
They would help you on NM and even HNM if you know them and of cos not hostile to them.
An example was, there was one day which my LS was in sky hunting triggers for god and so is those RMT/GS, and we are rushing to faust as it poped, but one of our member got aggro by faust as he poped near it without know it and walk out and aggro it. so of cause he die. As not many came that hunt, and no whm. i ask those RMT/GS to help raise3 the dead and as robot in faust area aggro to magic so we have to clear them and only 2-3 RMT/GS was there at faust but they slowly help us kill those robot and raise3 my people.
i believe a lot of people will not care about it as the place aggro magic so it would take sometimes to raise3 someone, since people who are there usually are for level up party somewhere or sky LS hunting triggers too which wount want to waste at least 10mins or more to clear those robot and then raise3.
RMT/GS have good and bad players too, some MPK steal NM/HNM but some dont.
Although even though those good RMT/GS dont MPK or steal NM etc, you can say that they are still GS that make the game bad in someways, but if you think of it, they may have good reason for it as they are not born with enough real money to support themself.
they may not even get the chance to go to school or have a decent meal like us.
So sometimes i dont really blame them as long as they dont steal nm/hnm mpk etc

[lionx]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

So sometimes i dont really blame them as long as they dont steal nm/hnm mpk etc

And thats the only thing that should matter i feel.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

shesh Grandma talking about raping hookers. I am not going to eat your homemade sugar cookies anymore.

[Lacilie]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

If everyone is justified for MPKing/KSing, based on paranoia, guessing etc There is a high possibility that most out there would MPK/KS to their own advantage, you may not do it, I may not do it, 99% of the forum users here won't do it, but that does not mean the majority of the idiots which made up the core of our community will not.

Anyway, yeah, a lot of the RMTs are improving, the emotes in Remora(Clap, Sit, Wave, Staggered, etc) actually went out of their way to help my party before. To be honest, I have met more jerks that are non-RMT than RMT, probably gil buyers to be exact.

[Tienellia]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

Yes, RMT and gil buying is bad. Is there any way to stop it persay? No not really. You can get on your soap box and preach all day about how we need to stop the gil buyers to put the sellers out of business, and people will, no doubt, gather beside you for the cause. But i garuntee that some of those standing by your side are the exact ones that you are trying to stop.

Unfortunately there is no real way to know if someone buys gil unless they openly admit it to you. If they do that in game, send the conversation to a GM, but for those that do not, there is no way that you can tell.

There are many players i know out there that have some pretty expensive gear in the game. They are not in an HNM linkshell nor a sky linkshell so many people wonder how they were able to afford such gear. Gill buying is the first thing that comes to most people's minds. The thing is, most of them have not bought gil, they just saved for a very long time and did not broadcast their in game bank account to everyone.

There is no true way to tell. And if you go around MPKing RMT or people you belive to be gil buyers, you are not really going to know if that is what they do. So you are not really doing what you feel needs to be done anyways. You will just end up starting a war between those people and yourself and will never get anything accomplished in the game.

[Auron517]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

Originally Posted by Auron517
Because prostitution does all these bad things like spreading AIDs and increasing the crime rate and what not, some one must step in and stop their actions that are causing harm to those around them.





And your entirely warping the parameters of our discussion. The original question was:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Red Poet
Is it okay to rape a hooker?



This is in comparison to stealing from a RMT. Raping breaks the law even though the person on the recieving end is breaking the law doing their job. RMT is against the FFXI "laws" and so is stealing.

I'm not trying to warp the parameters of anything. I was just adding the truth to what you said. If prostitutes are out wrecking everything for the city, they have to be stopped by someone.

Yes, raping is breaking the law. And also, what would you do if the police in this city ignored the problem the prostitutes are creating? It would just get worse and worse until someone did anything about it. I said "raping" didn't compare to the RMT in FFXI because it doesn't. I'm pretty sure if you were on a crusade to stop prostitution in your city, raping hookers to stop them from whoring wouldn't be on your list.

I then established that prostitution does affect other people, many other people in the long run. I even made a comparison showing how RMT can affect the FFXI community and compared the similarities of the two.

But for some reason you tried to paint a rosey picture on prostitution. I don't see what it has to do with the discussion we were having though. So back to the original statement about rape and stealing. Both are wrong and against "laws". So which one is better than the other? Neither. In the end, they both break the "laws" and harm someone, whether they are someone you like or not. Trying to justify that you can take the "law" into your own hands and do whatever you like because you don't care for something that someone does is just asinine.

I never tried a paint a "rosey" picture of anything. I was merely conveying that not all prostitution is like the one you described. Not all hookers are victims of inner city poverty and do it to survive out on the streets. There are many who do it as a business in the bedrooms of their own home. It's simply a truth of life, sometimes people sell themselves for money as a choice.

I'm not trying to take the law into my own hands simply because I have a problem with them. The reason that all FFXI players have the right to MPK the Gilsellers without mercy, is that fact that SE isn't doing shit about it.

What are you supposed to do when someone robs your house? Hide under you bed and call the authorities and wait for them to get there? Hell no, by then the robber is gone and so are your belongings. The logical thing to do is to go and make the thief go away by your self, there always isn't some authority figure to protect you.

RMT is the same thing. GMs know full and well who are the RMT on their server, and they don't do shit about it. Sure you can call a GM when you see a RMT trying to train mob onto you but, when you do: Oops, GM has 18 calls to process before yours. You die, they get there and when you tell them what happend you get "Ok, we'll review the situation" and then the next day, you see the exact same RMTs who trained you running around. How in the hell is that justice?

Stealing is okay in certain situations. If someone stole something from you and you knew 100% who it was, you find a way to get at them. Even if you do inturn "hurt" the person, because they have it coming. RMTs steal FFXI away from the players everyday. Everytime they monopolize NMs and other mobs and exploit the drops and raise prices, they steal my right to enjoy something I pay my hard earned money to play. So what if some RMTs O-Hat got stolen? He's a RMT for god's sake, who cares if he wasted his cluster on it, and he was tricked out of it? Would you rather this person attend a regular O-Hat run and have someone lot on it and steal it from a regular person?

No, I'd rather it be a RMT, people who don't add anything positive to the game. I don't care how many times they throw you a cure when you're in trouble. They make FFXI a worse place for everyone, period. If we don't get any justice and they are out doing these things, why not retaliate? How is what I advocate wrong? Steal or MPKing an RMT is what is right, because it stops them from exploiting my game experience.

[Tienellia]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

Steal or MPKing an RMT is what is right, because it stops them from exploiting my game experience.

How can you say that? By stealing or mpking an RMT, you are only furthering their explotation of the game, because instead of playing the game as it was intended, you are obsessed and focused on making life form RMT hell. You are then making your own game experience worse instead of better, only adding the already occuring problem that you can't do anything to fix.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

Yes Auron's argument is so flawed in so many ways. And no I would not steal from someone that stole from me. Thats the difference between you and I. I respect myself too much to lower myself to the standards of someone else.

[Auron517]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

How can you say that? By stealing or mpking an RMT, you are only furthering their explotation of the game, because instead of playing the game as it was intended, you are obsessed and focused on making life form RMT hell. You are then making your own game experience worse instead of better, only adding the already occuring problem that you can't do anything to fix.

I'm not furthering their exploitation of the game, i'm stoping it. I wouldn't call my belifs "obsessive" by anyway. It's not like i'm going to log onto the game, and look for anyone to give me an excuse to think they are RMT, however, If i'm out and about and I see known Gilsellers on my server, and I see an opportunity to ruin their day, I will.

Because if no one does anything the game will get worse. No, I may not make the Gilsellers go away, because as long as they have customers buying their gil, they'll be there. But when I go and MPK them, and make their entrie PT wipe, it's better than just sitting there, watching them, know that what they are doing at that exact second is going to affect me personally.

Yes Auron's argument is so flawed in so many ways. And no I would not steal from someone that stole from me. Thats the difference between you and I. I respect myself too much to lower myself to the standards of someone else.

How is my argument flawed? What is wrong with giving the RMTs a taste of their own medicine? You can say that i'm "lowering my standards" all you want. There is only so much a person can take. So, go to play FFXI and complain to your friends and ls about how fucked your server has become. Talk about how much you hate having to spend hours of time farming/crafting just to buy up to date equipment.

You can sit all you want and claim not to be on the level of the RMTs and wait for SE to take charge of their game and make them go away. But as for myself, I will "lower" my standards and steal, grief and MPK the shit out of any Gilseller I can find, because that's better than pissing and moaning and not have the will to go out and defend myself and those on my server from those that ruin our experience.

[ibroyles]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

From a moral standpoint,

1) MPKing somebody is wrong.
2) Stealing from somebody is wrong.
3) Gilsellers MPK/steal. (therefore they are doing something wrong)
4) If you MPK/Steal, then you will be disliked by the community.

So, does the following statement follow from the above?

5) If somebody is disliked by the community, it is not wrong to steal OR MPK them.

Notice this is worded carefully so that we can draw an important conclusion. The statement (5) will introduce a contradiction from statements (1)-(4), which I think we would all agree with. Follow this train of thought. Gilsellers are disliked by the community. That being the case, from statement (5) we can imply it is not wrong to steal from them, and it is not wrong to MPK them. Here is the contradiction, MPK'ing and stealing is right by this train of thought, but we reasoned that MPK/steal was WRONG as reasoning for MPK'ing them in the first place. Furthermore, by our reasoning this leads us to that if we MPK/steal from them we will be disliked by the community. This is what many people who have voiced their opinions are this subject are probably now realizing, just because you THINK its right, doesn't mean you're not actually contradicting your own very motives. Think about this, I'm trying to make it as clear as possible.

Given all this, I still cant honestly say I will never MPK a RMT. Sometimes thing happen out of anger which contradicts our moral prerogatives, and obviously if I ever get MPK'ed by a gilseller I would be pretty pissed.(hasn't happened yet, although they have tried unsuccesfully, which I laugh at.)

[Tienellia]

Re: Is it ok to steal from RMT?

You can sit all you want and claim not to be on the level of the RMTs and wait for SE to take charge of their game and make them go away. But as for myself, I will "lower" my standards and steal, grief and MPK the shit out of any Gilseller I can find, because that's better than pissing and moaning and not have the will to go out and defend myself and those on my server from those that ruin our experience.

I want you to know that i am not disagreeing with you in the respect that this is a problem. The prices of good gear on all the different servers have become seriously inflated due to gil buyers and sellers. What i do want you to open your mind to is there are other ways to beat the system besides doing things like mpk and such that can get you jailed by a GM.

I co-own a linkshell. We have someone in ever craft at 100. We have the man power to do most anything we need and are able to farm anything a member needs, then we have the crafting support to back it up to make the higher priced items. Now as far aas some of the NM's that are over monopolized, we have take quite a few of them from the gilsellers as well for the item instead of someone having to buy it.

Just as having a gang in your neighborhood that is terrorizing everyone and making life for everyone in teh neighborhood miserable, you don't take a gun out and just shoot them ni the head when you see them walking by. There other ways to fight something that is wrong, besides doing something just as unethical.