New 360 Pic

[fuz]

Re: New 360 Pic

Kuu, you're assuming the multi-core 360 and PS3 cpu is perfect, which I highly doubt.

I do not mean dual core in the sense of dual CPU. I mean two main processing units on a single CPU.

Branch prediction and cache problems are not 100% solved to this day. It is already known that AMD has a better branch prediction in the A64 versus the P4, and that IBM’s research efforts for branch prediction in other processors is far behind those two because they posses less experience and spend less money on development. (It also shows up in power-pc tests against the AMD and Intel counterparts.)

Cache is only there to increase bandwidth. The method for determining the amount of cache needed varies from algorithm, and it is not perfect. Too much cache, and you loose transistors for processing, not enough, and the processor can’t be fed continuous data to work as well as it can. Especially for a first time processor like the cell, I don’t think they have accounted all possible processing scenarios at full efficiency--there's simply no previous experience for a cpu of this type. It’s not an evolutionary refinement, but a new type of processor, and like all new things, there’s going to be problems.

You also completely misunderstand me in terms of high resolution. I never said that high rez in and of itself is bad. (that’s f***-ing obvious) I'm saying that at high resolution, when you do poor work, it looks much worse that it would be at lower rez. Why? Because if a lazy designer uses a low rez texture in a high rez game, it’s very apparent. You can’t do the same level of work that would be appropriate for the PS1 and expect it to fly on the PS3. The higher the rez goes, the more work is needed to fill it in--it is never less work to do, or just the same as you claim.

I work in the goddamn print industry, I know what the hell I'm talking about.

I’m not anti-future, I’m not anti-tech. (Why the hell would I be?) You want to think I am for the sake of your argument, but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that the route that the engineers set about creating is high dubious in it’s efficacy with the given resources. IMO, the radical approach that they went with, is not route I would have taken because it creates as just as many problems than it solves.

BTW, I don’t what Kailea-D’s comments are about… It’s just stating the obvious.

[Kailea]

Re: New 360 Pic

BTW, I don’t what Kailea-D’s comments are about… It’s just stating the obvious.

yeah I know, because people cant see the obvious.....with the three new systems, they will basicly all be the same, each one will have 1 thing that will make it stand out....

PS3 -multi screen output
360 -basicly a PC
Rev -Emulation of NES SNES and N64

all have wirless controlers, all will have HDD and network suport, they will all beable to play music and DVDs. Now all these my not be doable right out of the box, but with whater you have to add to them, they will all have these fetaures

The reason why I am pointing this info out.....is because arguing ouver this and taht about the insides of the systems is retarded, because no matter what is on the unside, all three will look and work the same.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: New 360 Pic

I can't say that I agree with Kailea. . . i'm sure that a multi-platform game will have basically no differences, but the cores that push the systems are just too damn striking to say they will all be the same =/

Oh, Kuu, we're you refering to IPv6 btw?

And I just noticed what the OP was about, and how strongly we deviated >.> Maybe this should be stickied for all Next-Gen referal.

And Revo will not have HDD, at the most it will have a shyte load of Flash memory, or a revamped design being as how Nintendo seemed to wise up this generation. Instead of taking the "screw you guys, we'll do whatever we want and just give you two Zeldas every 5 years to shut you up," they seem to be getting their feet wet in terms of keeping up with the standards set in the industry.

Quite frankly, Nintendo can't be considered the Bar Setter anymore. Sony stole that as soon as they came out with the PS1. At the very least, the three titans will be duking it out for our enjoyment, and that's ultimately good for the consumers and gamers.

Me and my roomie are still getting a PS3, and we may not get a 360. I'd just get a 360 just so I could have it to collect the dust my PS3 blows off my Revolution. Then I could say "360 sucks, I have it, but all I play is my PS3."

/end sarcasm

[Caspian]

Re: New 360 Pic

Instead of taking the "screw you guys, we'll do whatever we want and just give you two Zeldas every 5 years to shut you up,"

And yet, it seems myself and many others are stupid enough to keep coming back for more.
Damn you nintendo, you put out like maybe a game every other year I like and you know I'll buy every new system you put out just b/c I want Zelda and Metroid.

[kuu]

Re: New 360 Pic

Kuu, you're assuming the multi-core 360 and PS3 cpu is perfect, which I highly doubt.

I do not mean dual core in the sense of dual CPU. I mean two main processing units on a single CPU.

Branch prediction and cache problems are not 100% solved to this day. It is already known that AMD has a better branch prediction in the A64 versus the P4, and that IBM’s research efforts for branch prediction in other processors is far behind those two because they posses less experience and spend less money on development. (It also shows up in power-pc tests against the AMD and Intel counterparts.)

Cache is only there to increase bandwidth. The method for determining the amount of cache needed varies from algorithm, and it is not perfect. Too much cache, and you loose transistors for processing, not enough, and the processor can’t be fed continuous data to work as well as it can. Especially for a first time processor like the cell, I don’t think they have accounted all possible processing scenarios at full efficiency--there's simply no previous experience for a cpu of this type. It’s not an evolutionary refinement, but a new type of processor, and like all new things, there’s going to be problems.

Do you know what you are talking about when you are talking about branch prediction? ... I asume you know what it is, and why your comment is stating the obvious. Branch prediction is heavily dependent on code, and bad code to say the least, it is nearly unsolvable due to the nature of who's coding it.

But anyway, you really do need to read up on your tech articles, I mean arstechnica already goes over the hill these days with diagrams and everything. You need better branch prediction the longer the "pipeline" is, because dumping a 3 oz can for error is much less then dumping a 10 gallon. A cell processor is going parallel much that of a vectors, (thus the term spe), it doesn't really apply the same way here.

The biggest problem with multi-core CPU is latency, as I said, they pretty much solved that to an expent because IBM has much better experiance in this. The most obvious method was to simplified the instruction window...which was nothing new since they've been doing that with many of their own chips like the altivec, G5, and worked out pretty well.

You also completely misunderstand me in terms of high resolution. I never said that high rez in and of itself is bad. (that’s f***-ing obvious) I'm saying that at high resolution, when you do poor work, it looks much worse that it would be at lower rez. Why? Because if a lazy designer uses a low rez texture in a high rez game, it’s very apparent. You can’t do the same level of work that would be appropriate for the PS1 and expect it to fly on the PS3. The higher the rez goes, the more work is needed to fill it in--it is never less work to do, or just the same as you claim.

I work in the goddamn print industry, I know what the hell I'm talking about.

Not really sure what you're trying to put in the senerio... Only real case are bit maps over 3d. maybe something like Nipponichi's disgea... and those worked pretty well...and what developer would not have high rez bitmaps around?

More pixels means less "jaggies" even in textures, so it's always improvement.

Oh, Kuu, we're you refering to IPv6 btw?

No, 32bit addressing 2^32 can only hold about 4gigs of ram. It was unthinkable for VM space to use 4 gigs when it was made 20 years ago...but here we are now, and already there are hungry professional programs that want more then 1gig.

Well 64bit is appon us, so it's a non issue now..by the time you need it(5-10yrs down the road).

[fuz]

Re: New 360 Pic

Kailea, you don't have any idea what is going to be in the revolution. There is no official news on it's capabilities at all. Making assuptions this quick is stupid.

360 is as much a pc as the PS3. And yet neither of them are remotely similar to the processors that PCs currently run. Simply stating that PS3's only advantage is dual monitor support is a gross oversimplification of the hardware that's been developed.

And we're not arguing about the difference between consoles, we're arguing whether or not the consoles are really as good (compared to PCs) as they say they are.

[fuz]

Re: New 360 Pic

Yes, and the G5 chips totaly blow when it comes to server and workstation apps. That's why you don't see any of those chips powering those types of computers. Whether or not IBM has solved the problems inherent in the PowerPC architecture remains to be seen. You say it's solved, but the hardware isn't even out. Are you really that sure?

Again higher detail from higher rez is more work. You need better models, more detailed and larger environments. All artists like to work at higher resolution, but not many like to work in high detail. 2D games can bypass it to a degree, but no one is going to put up with crappy design, not matter how the graphics are. Higher resolution in and of itself is better, not worse, but it's not magically better.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: New 360 Pic

Well, it was already established that console developers are among those that are able to adapt with the times. With PCs its more ofa gradual thing, always forcing you to learn. Consoles require developers to relearn every generation. not anything gradual either- they're dealing with machines that blow their predacessors out of the water in terms of. . . erm, everything.

So my point is that while we all have different takes on it, it's not like games will be crap. Games will be good even if they only utilize 3 SPEs or w/e. Look at how a monolith like PS2 upgraded and advanced over the years. Developers learned, slowly but steadily, how to handle it's hardware, and these new systems are no doubt different. Agreed, new games make look like trash after we get over the shock value, but give the PS3 at most 1 year, and neither of the arguments on this thread will need to be mentioned.

Quite frankly, we're in a win-win situation. While I have learned much from this thread, I feel it will get outta hand again real soon, so lets just agree that once again, I'm right, and we're all team players ^_^V ("V" for Victory!!!!!!!)

Oh yeah, Xbox sux.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New 360 Pic

Oh yeah, Xbox sux.

/em sighs, shakes her head at the fanboy, and walks away.

When the X-box and PS2 were first released, games didn't take full advantage of the systems. It wasn't until much later that we got to see just what they could do. We'll probably see the same happen with the next gen systems also. People will be going "Ok this isn't much better than the PS2/X-box, WTF!?" Patience is a virtue, we will see the potential eventually. So I won't be expecting much when I get them and if they surprise me then thats great. But if they don't, I won't be disappointed.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: New 360 Pic

^.^;; Sorry there, sempai, that last line was meant to be a satiric end to a generally serious post. I think from now on i'll have to do /endsarcasm at the finish of my post, cause ppl take me serious at the wrong times and expect me to be funny all the time ;.; And when did you get that uber Yoshi Icon?

Edit:

Woot Post 100.

[fuz]

Re: New 360 Pic

I'm 100% sure that the 360 and PS3 consoles (with new games) will have far superior graphics compared to the previous (current) consoles. The video cards alone in the new systems is not one gen up, it's several. Also, the video cards are not some wierd console specialty like the PS2, but modified PC hardware--good old brute force power, the evolutionary result of the cutthroat PC 3D graphics business.

What I'm more worred about with these new games is that load times for all the high rez textures is going to be insane--especially with the lack of a HDD. The 3d modeling for sure will be better (vetex data is insignificant), but if the texturing isn't going to be improved, games won't look much better than in the previous consoles. A 720p capable TV would also be necessary to really get the most out of the improvements.

Developers might be so involved with eye-candy, they forget to make a game... ala Doom3.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New 360 Pic

^.^;; Sorry there, sempai, that last line was meant to be a satiric end to a generally serious post.

And when did you get that uber Yoshi Icon?

Ah, sorry didn't catch that. I just love gaming and am a bit sensitive to fanboys of any system. My apologies.

The Yoshi icon has been my avatar for a couple of years off and on. I keep losing him when a hd goes or my os blows up. LOL A very sweet person on the forums I mod found him for me recently. *hugs to Twilight Cloud*

[WishMaster3K]

Re: New 360 Pic

Oh yeah, load times, thats going to suck. B-U-T from what I know about PSP (very limited) a lack of memory is accountable for this. Looking at a game like Midnight Club Fub Edition (load times lasting into the multiple minutes.) then comparing it to a game like GTA which has been crafted around the strengths and downfalls of the system, it's gonna be hot and cold with games on the new systems.

Look at FFX, there is generally no loading time. lso, SE had the ability to pour a ton of resources into development for FFX. Hell, they even utilized the friggin Vectors in the PS2. That alone shows that stronger developers will give us the goods.

Oh yeah, load times, I'm sure Sony learned their lesson with the PS2. I mean, ouch. PS2 was a beast in it's own right, but Christ, the speedbumbs in development, the hurdles and the shortcomings were more headaches than necessary.

Developers have been clamoring for more memory, and hopefully Sony delivered (i can't decode the wealth of information found here-> download and read if you want. My head starts hurting halfway into like. . page 5 on all the documents ;.; http://cell.scei.co.jp./e_download.html

Also, it's been mentioned, but if Sony doesnt give a good bandwidth between SPEs, then the main bottleneck of the PS3 will be it's own friggin brain =/

Oh yeah, I keep straying from my point. Based on the usage of the PS2 and what stronger developers did, its gonna be hot and cold with the quality of games. All we have to do is wait. . . I mean. . . PS2 launched with, what was it called, Fantasia? Yeah, we have no choice but to stick to our guns and hope for the best.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New 360 Pic

Oh yeah, I keep straying from my point. Based on the usage of the PS2 and what stronger developers did, its gonna be hot and cold with the quality of games. All we have to do is wait. . . I mean. . . PS2 launched with, what was it called, Fantasia? Yeah, we have no choice but to stick to our guns and hope for the best.

FantaVision, oy! Remember Summoner........Bouncer........... /sigh

I remember sleeping outside the store, third person in line, and then going in and standing there wondering wth I was going to buy with it. LOL On the up side my PS2 was free because I bought a few extra and sold them.

Please please please Sony have a sweet line-up for EVERYONE!

[WishMaster3K]

Re: New 360 Pic

We wont need a sweet lineup when we can play FF12, which i *think* is still a PS2 game, on PS3's launch. I swear, Sony and SE are pulling some wierd Coup de etat. . . with all the mergers and what not, how much percentage does Sony own of SE?

Before merger, it was 19ish%. SE sold more stocks to Enix than Enix sold to Square, effectively making Enix the larger partner in the merger. . .so. . . that leaves me confused as fuck.

Either those cutscenes we saw were real-time PS3 (read: sarcasm) or SE is getting some sort of Killer App for buying a PS3. Everyone and their mom knows that if a Sony system launches with a Final Fantasy, it'll instantly create a niche like how Nintendo always launches with some variation of a Mario game. . . All I can do is hope, and curse myself for believing that SE is the kind-good-down to Earth company that stole me heart when I played Chrono Trigger. . . Not the maniacal dictators, who often crash FFXI because they forget how to spell "Facist" and can't access their files and who wont give Nobuo Uematsu his own masters, hence, owning his music and generally disappointing all their fans with each concurrent release. . .

I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep now.