New 360 Pic

[kuu]

Re: New 360 Pic

Do some people really know what draw distance really means?

Looking at the picture it does look like draw distance is farther... Hard to say unless I can pinpoint where that place is, and compare.

At first glance the draw distance is pretty far if you can see grass that far back.

[Caspian]

Re: New 360 Pic

Watching HDTV on a TV is only different because it’s bigger, not really better in quality.

Are you sure about that?
Was at a friend's house who has hdtv, and there was an obvious distance b/w the picture of regular espn and espnhd.

[kuu]

Re: New 360 Pic

Are you sure about that?
Was at a friend's house who has hdtv, and there was an obvious distance b/w the picture of regular espn and espnhd.

HDTV isn't just big screen.

Bsides the resolution, there is also progressive scan. I believe xbox360 supports 780P and not 1080P that PS3 touts. People can google what progressive scan is if they don't know, but bascially it makes things look better in the end.

There is also contrast ratio. I.E 100:1, 300:1, 800:1, at 800:1 it's pretty realistic coloring as it is... this bascialyl means black is black and red is red, or more realistic vibrant colors. Computers monitors can also achieve this, but with hefty price tags all the same, so think of a good HDTV as and already good monitor.

Finally size of course. Right now HDTV are expensive because of their size..maybe in future it'll lower in size as price drops. a 40inch and up is totally different experience to eyes.

[Thoronas]

Re: New 360 Pic

Rergadless about whether the xbox version will look much better than pc it will without question look a hundred times better than the ps2 version. It was hard going from playing Wow on a decent mac to playing FF again on my ps2 (and no I won't get a pc just to play games)

[fastcart]

Re: New 360 Pic

Because someone asked:

1UP: It's been reported that the draw distance on the Xbox 360 will be twice as long as the PC version. Will this give Xbox 360 players an added advantage because they can see enemies from a longer distance, helping 360 owners to camp rare monsters more efficiently?

HT: Actually, the draw distance will mostly affect the overall scenery of the game. The distance between the players and enemies will be the same as the Windows and PS2 version.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3142462 So, targetability et al shouldn't be affected.

[fuz]

Re: New 360 Pic

HDTV isn't just big screen.

Bsides the resolution, there is also progressive scan. I believe xbox360 supports 780P and not 1080P that PS3 touts. People can google what progressive scan is if they don't know, but bascially it makes things look better in the end.

There is also contrast ratio. I.E 100:1, 300:1, 800:1, at 800:1 it's pretty realistic coloring as it is... this bascialyl means black is black and red is red, or more realistic vibrant colors. Computers monitors can also achieve this, but with hefty price tags all the same, so think of a good HDTV as and already good monitor.

Finally size of course. Right now HDTV are expensive because of their size..maybe in future it'll lower in size as price drops. a 40inch and up is totally different experience to eyes.

Progressive scan is what computers have done for a very long time. It doesn't improve picture quality, it brings it up to par. TVs used to show images in interlaced mode. There are several types of interlacing, but suffice to say, they all involve showing half of the image in one frame, and the other half in the next. That way a TV can 'fake' a higher resolution.

Progressive scan renders the whole screen in one frame, which is what computers have done for... ages now. Also computer monitors have been working at much higher refresh cycles, 60-100Hz is not uncommon.

Contrast ratio is not dependent on the xbox, but the display unit as you said--so it's not an inherent difference between FFXI PC or xbox. To be sure, both TVs and computer monitor can achive the same contrast ratios, but normally when they are high, it washes out colors--it doesn't make them bolder. Contrast ratios are also not measured to a universal standard, so it's all just marketing hype.

I can also hook up my PC to a TV and get the same large sceen experience...

In fact, the only real advantage I see in xbox is the cost factor, and the longer clipping distance.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: New 360 Pic

Well thanks for the info guys. I'm the most technologically aware of my friends, and I didnt know 3 licks of what you guys initiially mentioned, but thanks for all the in-depth explanations. And yes, I will be looking up Progressive scan independantly (^^)v

Anyway, I'm holding my breath for a PS3 version. Those screens made me eager to get the XB360, if not for anything except FFXI and the promise of other games. Hell, this could mean that the experience is significantly better, since it would be run on XBlive's Broadband only network.

Then again, while SE no doubt has big pipes, we'd still be limited to the 56k compatability issues. So maybe we'll have to wait and see. I notice that I do not get much lag on PS2. Even in Lower Jeuno. And recently, I stopped getting lag in Ballista as I usually did.

So perhaps the game will be fully tailored for the 360 and it'll be interesting to compare it side-to-side to PC. Despite being on par, I think the XB360 version will One-Up the PC in many areas, including the fact that you'd need a computer in excess of thrice the XB360s price, maybe double, to display things comparably.

Just my speculation. I'm not good with HDTV tech, but I'm pretty comfy with networking.

[Zaptruder]

Re: New 360 Pic

Yeah, HD Television is a little better then what you get as a basic standard for High Resolution with the computer and monitor. The general standard that I new was usually around 1026 x 768, the HDTVs get around 1366 x 768. Means a lot more side view with the same amount horizontal as the monitor (or called Vertical Scan Lines).

Regular TV if you didn't know is like 720 x 480 resolution (4:3) or something like that.

1. How the hell did you become a moderator? I guess staunch mindlessness for FFXI is all that's needed.

j/k. Or am I?!

OK, enough of the digs...

2. HDTV resolutions are as follow: 720p, stands for 1280*720 progressive
1080i; 1920*1080 interlaced, 1080p; 1920*1080 progressive.

At this stage, both 720p and 1080i have upto 60hz standard, while the 1080p is capped at 30hz.

Progressive as others have explained means that the entire image is rendered every update (hz), so at 60hz; you get 60 full updates per second.

Interlaced means that half the image is rendered every update; first every odd line, then every even line. Depending on the displays, the actual rendering strategy may differ, but the information source does not.
In practical terms, this means that during scenes with high movements, noticable 'tearing' can occur... it's not unlike putting a wiremesh over the TV screen and moving it up and down.... well that's as best I can describe the effect, but it's an inaccurate description... you will understand it once you start to notice it though ;P

Now here's the tricky bit... when choosing a new HDTV display, the actual resolution of the set can vary widely from model to model. Some models might have irregular resolutions such as 1024*1024, or 1366*768, etc. Infact, to date, I haven't found a single true 1280*720 fixed pixel display, meaning that nearly every set out there has some sort of scaling issue with a 720p signal.
In practical terms though, most sets will display movies and full motion scenes extremely well regardless of actual resolution... but when it comes to things like static images, stuff like HUDs, computer outputs, etc, you will not be recieving a pixel perfect image from the display.
But as it's rather difficult to track down a proper pixel perfect 720 display (and I'm not exactly sure why this is), your best bet is to find a display as close to the 1280*720 dimensions as possible.
This way, you get as little interpolation artifacts as possible; where the source image; smaller than the display is stretched to fit the display. In most cases (all practical cases really) the source resolution doesn't cleanly divide into the display resolution... so that without an interpolation algorithm, you basically have to double the pixels every so often in order to fill out the screen... e.g. a 1280 source stretched out to a 1366 display will have 86 lines spaced out across the screen that just look wrong (the human perception is extremely good at pattern detection). With interpolation algorithms, this can be smoothed out, but at the expense of image accuracy.
In practical terms though, because different sets have different interpolation methods, you'll basically have to eyeball them yourself to find a satisfactory set. What you should keep in mind though is that you want to request a demo for a 1280*720 picture... preferably with straightlines and letters, such as windows output at that resolution. That should make it easiest to tell the quality of the interpolation techniques and see whether or not it's acceptable to you.

Relating this back to the X360 version of FFXI; it's HD resolution displays at 720p, so while some new sets out there are capable of pixel perfect 1080P resolution, you probably want to keep with 720p sets for the best image quality for the next 5 years (at this point in time, 1080p just consumes too much bandwidth and resources in all areas (from actually producing the image/video, to sending the signal from the console or BRD player to the TV) for it to be a viable standard).

Also, the two extra visual features (aside from the intrinsic ones such as been able to play from the comfort of the couch) that the X360 has is that the scenery draw range has been doubled (ideally they'll use the extra distance to employ gradual fogging, so that scenery doesn't just pop in... but I don't know what they're planning on doing... I think they'll be lazy about it and just have it pop in) AND that the frame rate jumps from a cap of 30FPS (on both PS2 and PC) to 60FPS. It should be a much more consistent frame rate as well.

........

But with the recent announcement that MS has made, where they're releasing a X360 without hard drive and a dearer package with hard drive, means that a hard drive is no longer a guaranteed item for the X360... means that its status is like with the PS3. Which means, there is a possibility that square could port it to the PS3 as well (although in reality, I doubt it... as long as they make it so that the PS2 version can be played on the PS3).

Thanks for reading all; I've probably confused more than I've helped... but at least what I've said is relatively accurate

[kuu]

Re: New 360 Pic

) AND that the frame rate jumps from a cap of 30FPS (on both PS2 and PC) to 60FPS. It should be a much more consistent frame rate as well.

At this stage of the game, it's near impossible to go 60fps on ffxi. The game engine is near walled itself due to weird programing. Probably at some point they decided like this, but it would take a sizable rehauling the engine to make it go 60fps, i.e. not likely.

People have hacked the 30fps to see what will happen, and guess what, the engine is tied to it. Not only does it not blocks higher then 29.9, it forces it to go 29.9. An animation will go faster then 30fps for the start duration of animation, and then slows down to make it equal to exactly that frame rate. Strange isn't it.

[Zaptruder]

Re: New 360 Pic

Ummm... at least from what I've read from the interviews, that's the two things that they're planning to do.

Seriously though... some random guy hacking at the engine is far and away different from the actual developers working on the source code.

[DakAttack]

Re: New 360 Pic

I don't think any of the pictures show off the draw distance. If you're in La Theine, or Konshtat you can see the mountains in the distance pop up and appear as you run. I'm hoping that wont happen, or happen less now. I think the Moblin pic might show it off, as I always see blackness beyond the structures as I run through those places.

[kuu]

Re: New 360 Pic

Ummm... at least from what I've read from the interviews, that's the two things that they're planning to do.

Seriously though... some random guy hacking at the engine is far and away different from the actual developers working on the source code.

I have only seen them say possible to look into increasing draw distance. I never seen fps mentioned.

As I said, it's not just a switch it seems, it's tied to the engine itself. And most programers know it's a pain in the rear to mess with that. Developer or not.

Can it be done? probably
Will it take effort? probably. And that's where the problem is

S-E has hinted in all forms they don't want to mess with things that are too hard, and go for speed and compatibility in release.

[Macht]

Re: New 360 Pic

Sorry about that Zaptruder, you are right. I'm justing having a difficult time right now and not having that easy of a time thinking as straight. Mostly just a situation around these boards that's gotten me distracted now.

You are right about the 720p and 1080i, yes there is always a stretching and eyeballing it is best you can do. The 1366 x 768 though does seem to be the closest to 1280 x 720 dimensions which you are trying to get closest to, in the same effect the 1366 x 768 also gets the closest ratios for the 1920 x 1080 resolution.

Mostly because both of those ratios are wider then they are tall, were as the other 1024 x 1024 is square so a lot more stretching vertically while also crushing the image horizontally.

[Caspian]

Re: New 360 Pic

-_- Hello Uncle Leo.

Seriously, ya'll lost me a long time ago. What I gathered is:
computer monitors are technically HD
HDTV's are good at hd so long as theres no hud's
theres lots of lines that do things.....
did i miss anything????

[Zaptruder]

Re: New 360 Pic

The 1366 x 768 though does seem to be the closest to 1280 x 720 dimensions which you are trying to get closest to, in the same effect the 1366 x 768 also gets the closest ratios for the 1920 x 1080 resolution.

Mostly because both of those ratios are wider then they are tall, were as the other 1024 x 1024 is square so a lot more stretching vertically while also crushing the image horizontally.

They're plenty of 1280x768 displays around if you look around.

Double Post Edited:

-_- Hello Uncle Leo.

Seriously, ya'll lost me a long time ago. What I gathered is:
computer monitors are technically HD
HDTV's are good at hd so long as theres no hud's
theres lots of lines that do things.....
did i miss anything????

How can I sum it up for you?

If you're buying, go and look at the displays themselves; when you request a demo, request a demo of a computer display (i.e. windows and an internet browser) set at 1280*720. See if you're satisfied with the image after a bit of playing around.

If it can't take a computer input, you should probably walk away; most decent HDTVs will accept DVI and HDMI inputs; the former been commonplace output on newer videocards.