Final Fantasy XI & future of MMORPGs?

[tazirai]

Re: Final Fantasy XI & future of MMORPGs?

I've played AO (admittedly not too much though), and it's still a level based system. While it has the makings of a skill based system too, you're still ultimately limited by the old school D&D-style class-level system.

I played AO from Beta till last year , It went from Skill Based to level based.
The leveling was there for a "concrete" measurement of advancement.
I hate level based advancement, it has no grounding in reality.
ME? I dont need to see a level near my name to know how strong I am. I just wish more game developers saw this also.

You can make a game where skill placement is more important than level based.
You can make it so once your skill reached a sufficient peak, a monster would con differently to you.

Kinda like if you get beat up by the school bully, go workout and take up martial arts. You "sense" you can take on this dude/dudette without much worry.
You dont see the bully as purple con ^^

[Shiro_Hayate]

Re: Final Fantasy XI & future of MMORPGs?

I quit before Jedi were in game. How are the jedi? How powerful are they?

If they're padies then they're weak as hell obviously. Thanks to the combat upgrade, Jedis are know forced to use ranged weapons and such because Light Sabers are horrible. Saber Defense before Combat Upgrade allowed jedi to block every attack coming at them involving projectiles...but they kinda nerfed them too much. However, Jedi Defenders can literally spend 4-5 hours alive with 2-3 BH smacking them. So basically, if you're a Lightsaber user, you'll get raped. If you're a defender, you're overpowered.

I only played AO until I was 121 or so as a Martial Artist and Enforcer. I guess it was the lack of people that made me quit, trying to find an active clan was very difficult. Plus, I bought AI Expansion pack which ended up being useless because you need to be high level to find aliens. Trying to find a MMORPG right now, but they're just all copies of each other...I need entertainment for the summer! >,<

Has anyone played Horizons by the way?

[Pounce]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

I played AO from Beta till last year , It went from Skill Based to level based.
The leveling was there for a "concrete" measurement of advancement.
I hate level based advancement, it has no grounding in reality.
ME? I dont need to see a level near my name to know how strong I am. I just wish more game developers saw this also.

I played only for a few months after retail launch, but I don't ever recall AO being skill based.

There is a skill system for sure, but it's always limited by your level and your class.

A really good example of a pure skill based system is actually FFXI's crafting system. There are no limits - on both your advancement and as to what crafts you can choose - only your ability to acquire resources. That's how UO's system was, only it wasn't limited to just crafting - the entire development of your character was like that. (The "resource" for leveling combat skills being fighting against mobs of the appropriate "toughness").

Nor are you limited as to what skills you can pick for your character. Most games that have skill systems in addition to a level-class system restrict the types of skill your character can have based on class, and/or level. This is like saying, RDM can only have Alchemy and Cooking, while BST can only have Fishing and Cooking.

In UO, you could make a spellcasting swordsman who has a pet dragon. I don't think any other game allows for that kind of customization of your character. It's because pretty much every other MMORPG uses a level-class system which isn't very customization-friendly.

[Jei]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

everyone one of my friend who tried horizon said the game was horrible... they said they were lied by the devs... for example a game play footage which looks so good, but later one turned out to be a pre-render movies and totally different from the real game. Many many bad stories I've head about it.

[kuu]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

I just wish there'd be a MMORPG where you could do what you want, like crafters craft (without having to need 9 million to begin with *cough* Goldsmithing*) housing, The Sims-like stuff, and of course the classic hack-slash grind. Not sure what MMORPGs are lacking but I seem to be drifting away from them now, been trying all these trials and I couldn't stand them. Shadowbane was horrible, Asheron's Call 2 was just too damn ugly and Anarchy Online is good but dying.

Not really...Crafting was never ment to be that way, but rather forced to be that way with the AH. Usually you made something and sell it for a small profit or break even. This was the case in FFxi NA beta, I was able to make good profit on crafting because comeptition was scarse. The problem with ffxi is you're competing againist everyone else, and it ends up that the high levelers will always do it better then you. So you get screwed. (This is bascially called a saturated market)

This is really very realistic. Our world works the same way, got to spend money to make money, and gotta spend A LOT to be big. We call it going to the bank to raise capital. Well S-E lacked an enconomist and that lack of foresight, led to a real world crafting system, an area where people don't want it to be so real.

On the other hand if you make the crafting system too easy, and end up WoW...well that's not good either...

So it's hard to find a winning forumla that everyone likes.

[Jei]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

I think it's partially predictable and controllable tho about the price of crafting. The demands are always there so it's only a matter of controlling the supplies imo. Limited items from guild, the time needed to gather resources, their drop rates etc these all affect the price. If S-E really wants to keep the price down they can easily do it by increasing the drop rate or way to obtain them.

Remember refresh? lol it was over a million when it first came out. After one or two patches they increase the drop rate of it from BC and it's now dirt cheap.

[Caspian]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

So it's hard to find a winning forumla that everyone likes.

I think its more that there isnt a winning formula that everyone likes.
You cant please all the people all the time. Trick is finding something that a lot of ppl will like, or (more likely) one that ppl will put up with in order to do the things in game that they enjoy.

[Shiro_Hayate]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

everyone one of my friend who tried horizon said the game was horrible... they said they were lied by the devs... for example a game play footage which looks so good, but later one turned out to be a pre-render movies and totally different from the real game. Many many bad stories I've head about it.

Care to share some stories and how long ago this was? I'm download the trial right now, not sure if it's going to be as ugly and bad as Shadowbane lol

[Kitashi]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

I never understood the popularity of World of Warcraft. Only because thousands of people played the RTS thousands of people played WoW, but none of them realize how crappy the game really is.

For the sake of argument...

No... actually the majority of World of Warcraft players that I've run across are experienced MMO gamers, contrary to your conveniently contrived stereotype of Warcraft gamers as BNet kiddies. There are just as many ignorant tools in WoW as there are in FF XI... well, more because WoW has more subscribers, but the ratio in general seems to be the same.

Why is Warcraft popular? Because...

1) You can solo or group from 1 to 60. Grouping gives you much better rewards in instances (essentially BCNMs... minus the level caps, seal costs, and they're entire dungeons instead of just one battle), but you can most certainly go 1-60 alone if you want... and as any class. Unlike in FF XI and many other MMOs, no classes in WoW are screwed over solo. Some talent builds aren't as efficient as others, but you can always respec. For a cost.

And when you get to 60 and do the one-group instances for a few months to get the gear you want, there are always 10-man raids as well as full out mass raids for entire guilds in places like Molten Core and Blackwing Lair with more on the way. And these places are much, much more than "yard trash + one big boss." And there's more content on the way.

2) Levelling never feels like a 'grind' unless you purposefully avoid doing quests and the like that send you all over the world. And unless you go back and do gray quests nonstop, you'll have a ton of quests you never did with your first character to do with other characters. Not to mention that there are a lot of quests that begin with rare item drops (like a lost pendant) you find in the field, so depending on where you hunt monsters you'll wind up getting different quests. No grind = good.

3) The "pinata" effect, as it's called. Unlike in FF XI you can farm for awesome gear by random drops. Whereas in FF XI "farming" typically consists of hoping for specific drops like tree cuttings or gold beastcoins or what not, or camping a single NM for hours and hours and hours in hopes of him popping and getting the claim. In WoW you can run out and fight a wide diversity of monsters in the outdoors or go into an instance solo and challenge yourself there. Either way, you can get a ton of great items that way and the loot tables are large enough that you never really know what to expect. For the rarer items (rares, epics, etc) it's easier to pinpoint what exact types of monsters to hunt, and it's a far cry from sitting on your ass with a finger on your macro button for 24 hours straight hoping for Argus.

Sure, you can BCNM in FF XI with friends for drops... but good luck being lucky enough to have talented friends available to get together... of the right classes. And levels. With gear. Etc. In WoW if I want to farm for money to buy a new item, the farming in and of itself is a blast. In FF XI it's weeks of intense boredom trying to save up enough money before the gilbuyers hike the prices again.

4) In WoW you never sit on your ass doing nothing praying for a group invite, nor is it particularly difficult to put together a relatively capable party. I hated this in EQ, I hated this in FF XI, and I hated this in several other MMOs. Never happens in WoW. The ease of making a decent group is fantastic. Druids, Priests, and even properly specced Paladins (or Shamans for the Horde) can mainheal for a party. Warriors aren't in short supply but a Retribution Paladin can tank in a pinch with a careful group before 55+ anyway. Mages, Hunters, Rogues, and Warlocks are all damage dealers, but they all bring unique benefits to the table as well.

5) Multiple viable 'builds' per class with talent points. Each class has at least two 'main' builds, and even those can be played with for individual preference. For example, a primarily Cold-oriented Mage with a secondary investment of points in the Arcane tree is a main build... but there are tons and tons and tons of exact talent point layouts. Do you go 31/20? 36/15? 46/5? 18/33? And where do those points go? These differences have staggering impacts on how you play.

Whereas in EQ, FF XI, and most MMOs... if you're "A Magician", you're "A Magician." This doesn't apply in all games, but very few games actually let this work out so well. In most games that permit "uniqueness" (even in Blizzard's own Diablo 2), there is typically one superior build per class. Not so in WoW. That's one thing that annoyed me about FF XI for example; the only difference between Monk A and Monk B was how much gil they had.

6) Crafting. zOMG crafting. Crafting in WoW is a pleasure. Truly a pleasure. The real difficulty is finding the recipies required to make the truly powerful items. The often-onerous task of raising the actual skill in an MMO isn't bad in WoW. It isn't too easy and it isn't too hard. But difficulty aside... everyone can make a profit in WoW crafting... and the reason why is...

7) Bind on Equip items. Most items in the game are bind on equip. If you equp it, it's yours. You can't get rid of it except to destroy it or sell it to a vendor. If you craft a magic hammer and someone buys it... only THAT person will be using that specific hammer. You don't have to worry about flooding the market over time as people sell your hammers to others' twinks. There's a constant demand for new goods... because every item equipped is an item taken out of the economy.

8) Beautiful environments. Seriously. The care they took in making the game look fun to explore is amazing. FF XI isn't bad either and some areas are absolutely awesome, but WoW doesn't slack off here at all. Makes EQ2 (and most any other MMO) look like crap.

9) Sweet monster models. There's just a huge variety of them, and the attention to detail on them is great. FF XI had detailed models, but sadly there just aren't that many types of monsters. Yes, WoW does use palette swaps and size changes sometimes, but there's also just a ridiculously large number of completely seperate monster models too. And as you get higher in level, they start adding more and more models to the same 'families'. For example... ogre warlords look very, very different from standard ogres, or ogre-mages, or the like.

10) PvP. You can play on servers where you're never forced into it unless you seek it out in various ways on purpose... or you can play on servers where almost anything goes. Up to you.

11) RP servers where people actually RP. For the roleplaying geek in all of us.

12) Much more interactive combat.

I'm sure I could think of some more.

Don't get me wrong, I love Final Fantasy XI. I also think FF XI introduced a lot of new ideas. However, so has WoW... and I didn't really focus my post about the new ideas because I wanted to talk about why WoW works for a lot of people.

Remember, folks... MMOs aren't about "let's throw in some totally new idearz and create a new paradigm shift overnight!" They're about refining existing mechanics while incorporating new ones. True innovation is good and all, but there's also something to be said for taking something that's already there and making relatively minor changes in many places until it's totally new and refreshing.

Which is what WoW is, for me.

Not everyone has to like it, but Warcraft is not "crappy" in the slightest.

[ibroyles]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

k

[DakAttack]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

For the sake of argument...

No... actually the majority of World of Warcraft players that I've run across are experienced MMO gamers, contrary to your conveniently contrived stereotype of Warcraft gamers as BNet kiddies. There are just as many ignorant tools in WoW as there are in FF XI... well, more because WoW has more subscribers, but the ratio in general seems to be the same.

There was an extremely serious arguement on a server I had just created a character on about Michael Jackson.... and him being an alien. When I asked if they were joking they flamed me and continued on with the conversation. On another server I was litterally harassed by people in my own faction because I solo'd part of a quest that they had brought a level 60 nanny for. I've NEVER seen this in FFXI.

Why is Warcraft popular? Because...

1) You can solo or group from 1 to 60. Grouping gives you much better rewards in instances (essentially BCNMs... minus the level caps, seal costs, and they're entire dungeons instead of just one battle), but you can most certainly go 1-60 alone if you want... and as any class. Unlike in FF XI and many other MMOs, no classes in WoW are screwed over solo. Some talent builds aren't as efficient as others, but you can always respec. For a cost.

There lies the problem, every class can solo as efficiently as the rest. Talent builds were a good idea, but what's the point when there's always one useless tree, and the other two are cookie cutter? D&D is smart, because they balanced their classes for PvE and won't include PvP unless they can balance it for that as well. In WoW it was obvious they gave every class the ability to solo then let them loose in PvP without any prior thought as to what the results would be. Most players wont admit it, but the class balance is screwed.

And when you get to 60 and do the one-group instances for a few months to get the gear you want, there are always 10-man raids as well as full out mass raids for entire guilds in places like Molten Core and Blackwing Lair with more on the way. And these places are much, much more than "yard trash + one big boss."

Raids get old after the first time you go. Sure, you can take a break for a week, but it still become a gigantic chore.

2) Levelling never feels like a 'grind' unless you purposefully avoid doing quests and the like that send you all over the world. And unless you go back and do gray quests nonstop, you'll have a ton of quests you never did with your first character to do with other characters. Not to mention that there are a lot of quests that begin with rare item drops (like a lost pendant) you find in the field, so depending on where you hunt monsters you'll wind up getting different quests. No grind = good.

Leveling always feels like a grind, but not in the same sense. In FFXI I'm grinding EXP, but in WoW I'm grinding quests out for the EXP. They all boild down to mindless and simple busy work with no real point to it.

3) The "pinata" effect, as it's called. Unlike in FF XI you can farm for awesome gear by random drops. Whereas in FF XI "farming" typically consists of hoping for specific drops like tree cuttings or gold beastcoins or what not, or camping a single NM for hours and hours and hours in hopes of him popping and getting the claim. In WoW you can run out and fight a wide diversity of monsters in the outdoors or go into an instance solo and challenge yourself there. Either way, you can get a ton of great items that way and the loot tables are large enough that you never really know what to expect.

I did like this aspect better than FFXI's simple gil and craft item drops.

Sure, you can BCNM in FF XI with friends for drops... In WoW if I want to farm for money to buy a new item, the farming in and of itself is a blast. In FF XI it's weeks of intense boredom trying to save up enough money before the gilbuyers hike the prices again.

I farmed for a mount and it wasn't a blast.

4) In WoW you never sit on your ass doing nothing praying for a group invite, nor is it particularly difficult to put together a relatively capable party. I hated this in EQ, I hated this in FF XI, and I hated this in several other MMOs. Never happens in WoW. The ease of making a decent group is fantastic. Druids, Priests, and even properly specced Paladins (or Shamans for the Horde) can mainheal for a party. Warriors aren't in short supply but a Retribution Paladin can tank in a pinch with a careful group before 55+ anyway.

Ever since I hit 40 WoW feels a lot like FFXI, but that's probably because I'm on a low pop server. I sit around continuously announcing myself that I need ZF, or Mara, or something. I'm one of the few warriors on my server, so if there is somebody looking I'm first pick on tank. It's a plus, but it still takes a while to find something.

5) Multiple viable 'builds' per class with talent points. Each class has at least two 'main' builds, and even those can be played with for individual preference. For example, a primarily Cold-oriented Mage with a secondary investment of points in the Arcane tree is a main build... but there are tons and tons and tons of exact talent point layouts. Do you go 31/20? 36/15? 46/5? 18/33? And where do those points go? These differences have staggering impacts on how you play.

Not really, it still comes down to cookie cutter PvE and cookie cutter PvP builds. Nothing new or special here. I would have liked to see something more of preference than neccesity.

Whereas in EQ, FF XI, and most MMOs... if you're "A Magician", you're "A Magician." This doesn't apply in all games, but very few games actually let this work out so well. In most games that permit "uniqueness" (even in Blizzard's own Diablo 2), there is typically one superior build per class. Not so in WoW. That's one thing that annoyed me about FF XI for example; the only difference between Monk A and Monk B was how much gil they had.

True, but then that leads to something entirely new. The job is exactly the same now, but who can do theirs the best? All ninjas are the same, but they all can't tank the same. Being able to distinguish yourself in a large pool of sameness seems to be a plus sometimes.

6) Crafting. zOMG crafting. Crafting in WoW is a pleasure. Truly a pleasure. The real difficulty is finding the recipies required to make the truly powerful items. The often-onerous task of raising the actual skill in an MMO isn't bad in WoW. It isn't too easy and it isn't too hard. But difficulty aside... everyone can make a profit in WoW crafting... and the reason why is...

The reason why is because YOU CAN'T FAIL.

7) Bind on Equip items. Most items in the game are bind on equip. If you equp it, it's yours. You can't get rid of it except to destroy it or sell it to a vendor. You don't have to worry about flooding the market over time as people sell your hammers to others' twinks. There's a constant demand for new goods..

Always thought this was a bad idea. Take off BoP and BoE, then lower the drop rates. Problem solved.

8) Beautiful environments. Seriously. The care they took in making the game look fun to explore is amazing. FF XI isn't bad either and some areas are absolutely awesome, but WoW doesn't slack off here at all. Makes EQ2 (and most any other MMO) look like crap.

Wow, I REALLY hope you're joking. The enviroments in WoW, coupled with the less-than-stoneage graphics, wouldn't do an SNES game justice. Most areas are as boring to be in as they are boring to look at; completely uninspired by the world around them.

9) Sweet monster models. There's just a huge variety of them, and the attention to detail on them is great. FF XI had detailed models, but sadly there just aren't that many types of monsters. Yes, WoW does use palette swaps and size changes sometimes, but there's also just a ridiculously large number of completely seperate monster models too.

Murlocs always look like murlocs, ogres always look like ogres, furbolgs always look like furbolgs, etc. They don't change enough to warrent any sort of appreciation.

10) PvP. You can play on servers where you're never forced into it unless you seek it out in various ways on purpose... or you can play on servers where almost anything goes. Up to you.

On PvP servers it's always gank or be ganked, that hella worked out well. I've never seen anybody engage in a fair fight. Battlegrounds was a massive failure that only brings class imbalances further into the light.

Remember, folks... MMOs aren't about "let's throw in some totally new idearz and create a new paradigm shift overnight!" They're about refining existing mechanics while incorporating new ones. True innovation is good and all, but there's also something to be said for taking something that's already there and making relatively minor changes in many places until it's totally new and refreshing.

Which is what WoW is, for me.

It's called unoriginality. That's when you lack a vision of your own and need to "borrow" aspects from other games.

I could write a book on the thousands of flaws I've found in WoW along my way. The fact is nobody "cares". Blizzard doesn't care at all, their fans care but wont admit it outside of their forums, and they all go out of their way to ignore the problems on a daily basis. Pretty pathetic, unless you weren't exactly expecting your monthly fee's worth in game play. For the price, WoW isn't worth crap.

Had to shorten parts for length >_>

Note: Blizzard "funds" most of their reviews.

[Pounce]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

WoW's main appeal is soloability, and overall being more friendly to the casual gamer than a lot of ther MMORPGs out there.

Oh, the game has it's share of flaws, most notably it's 9-year-old-brat community. But you can't deny that for the most part, WoW is a lot more accesible to a lot more people than FFXI.

[Shiro_Hayate]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

Impaction, compared to the class balance in FFXI, WoW is FAR LESS screwed then FFXI is. And your arguments are really really weak. So weak that I stopped reading after your character creation story. If you decided to get yourself involved in a conversation about someone benig an alien then...damn.

The only thing that is screwed about WoW is the population imbalances, on ShadowMoon Alliance to Horde ratio is 3:1. But does it matter? Hell no I still get ganked. Oh and there's absolutely nothing wrong with cookie-cutter builds, there are cookie-cutter builds in every game, yes including FFXI equipment wise.

And by the way, I created this topic to discuss about MMORPGs in general, not for you to turn this into Final Fantasy XI vs. World of Warcraft. I like both games, and if you hate one of them, too bad go home.

[tazirai]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

Back on topic...

Ao did limit itself when it started to pose " level limits" per say , like you cap your points before level15, then have to wait till 15 before you can progress further.

Id love it if FFXI 2.0 came out and the actual weapon skill and magic and other skills.Helped determine your efficieny more than your level.

And like now some monsters have skill caps.
Another good thing would be for say summoners monsters to actually get stronger as your skill rose.

Still keep maat and still keep the genkai, but it would be based off your skill cap rather than level.
Im not sure how to implement something like this. Im a programmer but not a game designer.
It would be a treat to have a game based purely on skill of player and the toon. kind of a twitch version of ffxi ^^.

as for WoW , i love its cartoony feel, reminds me of the saturday morning cartoons of my youth. But I dont like to Solo 100% of the time.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: Final Fantasy XI &amp; future of MMORPGs?

FFXI isn't unbalanced as you say. Only DRG really gets it bad, but not by much. RNG doesnt outdmg WAR, DRK, and SAM by a lot. THF isn't so bad, but has another use.

In PVP, its all about teamwork. 1v1 isnt the best way to gauge BRD and WHM.