is using the windower cheating?

[csBahamut]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

I was just browsing the KI forums and found this:

It's nothing like StriderBoots.exe...

Damn SE for killing my incredibly convieniant ways of booking across the dunes to save people and running up Delkfutt's tower.

I just got that program yesterday, best thing ever happened to me, half way up Delkfutt's tower (I was exploring for my first time, almost level 60 and I never went in on my own, orz) the update comes out and my character won't go fast now. ; ;

I'm not saying that using hacks is a good thing, I'm saying using hacks for harmless situations to have fun or to help people isn't a bad thing. If I ever find that superclimb.exe thing...oh~ baby. I'll be flying around middle Delkfutt's tower like no one's business.

Damn those updates and their "no fun" preventions...I'll show them.

from: http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=63264

This guy is a perfect example of how the windower can be a gateway cheat for some people.

[kuu]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

What you said is true, but is not at all what I was refering to. I'm not refering to reading your computer memory. SE has control over who has access to their server. If they don't want to let you have access, they can not let you have access for whatever reason they care to give. If they suspect you of cheating and want to ban you from accessing the FFXI servers(which prevents you from playing the game), then they can do it. If they don't like you because your dog is black with brown spots, they can still ban you from accessing their server. They don't even have to give a reason.

Not Quite,

When you buy the game, and pay the fee, you are entitled to play the game unless you violate the ToS. Thus They can't kick you off unless you violate the ToS, and must refund your money. If they do neither, or some other problem, You can bring them to a court of law on a civil suit for violating ToS

And this is where it gets tricky. The ToS. It is a contract simple as that, and law grads are the closest thing you'll get to attorney advice, perhaps better in some cases(Grads aren't all newbies).

From what we know, the ToS is worded so vaguely, if you ever bring it to court, that S-E disabused you(Either as kicking you off the server, banning you, or harrassing you), you CAN sue them based on US QoS laws.

The ToS is not for just S-E, it's for YOU and S-E(thus a contract). If either side play unfair, both can take actions.

Of course like I said, S-E isn't doing that badly, and players usually don't ban together and bring a civil suit on....well people have files civil suit for less, so never say never.

Double Post Edited:

This guy is a perfect example of how the windower can be a gateway cheat for some people.

How? There is no mention of windower anywhere. The only link of windower as a gateway hack is in your mind.

The guys expressed his opnions, that strider boot wasn't bad...I say he's wrong, but everyone has thier opinions.

Here is a real perfect example:
"I used windower, over time I wasn't content, so I now use speed hacks and like too"
And who's going to say that?

[csBahamut]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

When you buy the game, and pay the fee, you are entitled to play the game unless you violate the ToS. Thus They can't kick you off unless you violate the ToS, and must refund your money. If they do neither, or some other problem, You can bring them to a court of law on a civil suit for violating ToS

Who owns the server? Did you sign a contract with SE saying they will refund your money if they ban you? No. You clicked an aggreement to pay the monthly fee for access to the FFXI servers for playing FFXI. Again, SE owns the servers. It's their property. SE is not bound by the ToS. The players are. Players agree to obey the ToS in exchange for access to SE's servers. Though, at any time that SE would ban a player from the game, they would have to pay back what was agreed apon in the agreement.

And this is where it gets tricky. The ToS. It is a contract simple as that, and law grads are the closest thing you'll get to attorney advice, perhaps better in some cases(Grads aren't all newbies).

From what we know, the ToS is worded so vaguely, if you ever bring it to court, that S-E disabused you(Either as kicking you off the server, banning you, or harrassing you), you CAN sue them based on US QoS laws.

The ToS is not for just S-E, it's for YOU and S-E(thus a contract). If either side play unfair, both can take actions.

See, the problem is, people have quoted 'law grad students' also supporting that people can't be brought to court over the ToS, or that the ToS won't hold up in court. That's why you can't trust what any of them say. It's only a guess. Plus, you have to consider who will be the judge/jury in such a case(I'm not sure if a jury would be used in such a case). But it all depends on who con convince the Judge/jury that they are right. We won't really know until someone tries.

If the ToS is binding to SE also, then I'm sure they've written it so that it's in their favor. Just like when companies hire people. They always include a clause saying that they can fire you at any time without reason or warning. And to counter any stating affirmative action laws...those involve reasons. The rule I stated is for when there's no reason.

SE has the choice on whether they want to enforce it or not. I haven't looked at the ToS wording recently, but I'm sure no where in there does it say that SE has to enforce the rules in their ToS.

We also need to consider that there are laws protecting companies from customers, as well as protecting customers from companies. If what a customer is doing is harming a business through illegal means, the company has ways of defending itself. Part of that defense is the ToS.

How? There is no mention of windower anywhere. The only link of windower as a gateway hack is in your mind.

I figured that it was implied that they used the windower first. Since the windower did come out before all these speed hacks and voke hacks, it can be assumed they started with the windower first. What botter or other hack user doesn't run the windower as well? Maybe it's not a concrete example, but it's close enough to get the point across. Like you said, who's going to admit it, and what's to keep them from saying they were lying about saying that?

I find it kinda silly that we're trying to agrue about laws and whether ot not something will hold up in court or not. We really lack the background and experience to even make an educated guess at what would happen. We can only wait till such problems do end up in court to know who is right or wrong. Until then, we'll only be shooting crap out of our mouths.

[little ninja]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

actually speed hacks an bots have been around for a very long time. i know i wasnt ingame for more then a month, when players talked of the speed bot. it wasnt much later when the first few posts about players having some sort of a bot to open 1 specific coffer in castle oz. those were way before i had ever seen a windower. some of my friends who wer around for the botting of rusty caps never remembers coming across windower programs.

it boils down to what a person considers cheating. an while yes i do believe i am BREAKING A ToS RULE. i do not feel asthough i am CHEATING anyone else, including myself. people can claim " its a gateway to cheats". i find that to be a bunch of crap. greed is what leads people to cheat.

rom file swap for moogle in my mog house to look different > FFXI modelviewer > windower. nothing that makes me out perform anyone else in game. so why would you call me a cheater for using them?

Double Post Edited:
i found this in another dictionary web page....



4. noun. In video games, a code (whether secret or published) or a series of movements (whether intentionally programmed or a glitch or coded by the player) input by the player in order to achieve one or more of the following:

a. enhance one's abilities in game play such as unlimited ammunition, enhanced or normally unavailable weapons, or God Mode;

b. unlock hidden easter eggs

c. unlock otherwise unavailable levels of play (see the Mario series of games)

d. (when coded by the player) to gain an unfair advantage in multiplayer competition

[fastcart]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Who owns the server? Did you sign a contract with SE saying they will refund your money if they ban you? No. You clicked an aggreement to pay the monthly fee for access to the FFXI servers for playing FFXI. Again, SE owns the servers. It's their property. SE is not bound by the ToS. The players are. Players agree to obey the ToS in exchange for access to SE's servers. Though, at any time that SE would ban a player from the game, they would have to pay back what was agreed apon in the agreement.

Not to nitpick, but technically Sony owns the servers. This was the whole reason the PS2 version of FFXI came out a few months after the PC release. Sony, wanted to prevent FFXI cutting into their Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies profits for as long as possible. This was 18+ months ago, so it is possible SE bought the servers by now. But, I've not heard of such a transfer.

Just trying to get accurate info out there even if I don't actually add to the conversation at hand.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

greed is what leads people to cheat.


d. (when coded by the player) to gain an unfair advantage in multiplayer competition

Yes a windower is a good example of greed. A strong desire to aquire more information leads people to use them. Thus they are expressing greed for more information.

Yes having a windower gives players an unfair advantage over people who do not or can not have one. The windowed player has much more useful information at their finger tips than other players. Imagine 2 people in Castle Oz trying to get to a coffer for their AF. Player 1 has no map and no idea where the coffers spawn. Player 2 alt-tabs and finds a map online that shows where the coffer spawns are. Player 2 gets the coffer first. Thus he had an unfair advantage over Player 1.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

The less technical people will fall for it sadly.

"Do you know why you're being punish?" Is the oldest trick in the book. It's making you admit something.

They should of clamp their mouths shut when the GM asked What does this new windower do.

However, I highly doubt none of the GMs have ever visited Azaril's website and follows updates on the windower.

[Macht]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

However, I highly doubt none of the GMs have ever visited Azaril's website and follows updates on the windower.

Exactly, TheGrandMom started a thread about a person getting banned for having a windower also. In there is a post of a converstation with a GM, the GM knew the web address for the windower. So it's obvious they are paying attention.

[little ninja]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Yes a windower is a good example of greed. A strong desire to aquire more information leads people to use them. Thus they are expressing greed for more information.

Yes having a windower gives players an unfair advantage over people who do not or can not have one. The windowed player has much more useful information at their finger tips than other players. Imagine 2 people in Castle Oz trying to get to a coffer for their AF. Player 1 has no map and no idea where the coffers spawn. Player 2 alt-tabs and finds a map online that shows where the coffer spawns are. Player 2 gets the coffer first. Thus he had an unfair advantage over Player 1.

an player 3 printed out all the coffer locations, player 4 has his laptop out with the same coffer locations. an player 5 has is endgame buddy running around looking for the coffer locations. an player 6 is on a split screen tv running web tv.

this whole game is unfair, an there will always be another player who has an unfair advantage over another player.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

And the other points are not what is being addressed is it? You can run any amount of variables you like but we are only talking about the haves and have nots. And the point is clear.

[Paul]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Such programs like the striderboots.exe, the map warp, and float cheats can only be used if the game is windowed. I know some people that have played with them and they said you must have windower to use them.

Should you guys even argue with SE about the topic? It's their game and obviously they don't want you to use it. Windower is a hack/cheat that breaks the ToS, end of story. Its pointless to justify that it isn't cheating because in the end using the windower will be cheating.

I never used windower ever and I have no problem loging out to look up information. Its not hard or anything. My PC is free of spyware that I don't get popups that would crash the game. The newest version of norton doesn't even crash the game nor do windows updates.

[kuu]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Such programs like the striderboots.exe, the map warp, and float cheats can only be used if the game is windowed. I know some people that have played with them and they said you must have windower to use them.

Should you guys even argue with SE about the topic? It's their game and obviously they don't want you to use it. Windower is a hack/cheat that breaks the ToS, end of story. Its pointless to justify that it isn't cheating because in the end using the windower will be cheating.

I never used windower ever and I have no problem loging out to look up information. Its not hard or anything. My PC is free of spyware that I don't get popups that would crash the game. The newest version of norton doesn't even crash the game nor do windows updates.

This was argued oooh 3 pages back...please do read before you try to say something that has no only beend said, but said resently and debated.

To sum it up, Windower and hacking are two different things. You can use strider hack just as easily without windower. Heck it was around before their was a windower, it's generally called speed hack.

Debating whether windower is a hack on the other hand is something else.

I find it kinda silly that we're trying to agrue about laws and whether ot not something will hold up in court or not. We really lack the background and experience to even make an educated guess at what would happen. We can only wait till such problems do end up in court to know who is right or wrong. Until then, we'll only be shooting crap out of our mouths.

Agree, but it has been argued, by people more experienced then ourselves, and I am bascially relaying to you what they said.

But S-E is not almightly, we do have QoS laws, they exist, they are there for a reason, and S-E has to obey them just as much as the next company. If they do something out of their ToS, you CAN fight back. Whether your choice to do so, is upto you(most people just quit). They own the servers, but like I said ToS is a contract(It binds BOTH parties).

To generalize it and move away from S-E,

ORPGs and even software companies has a history of abusing their ToS. More and More people have been taking it up with their GMs and companies, and some of them have gotten GMs to back off. It depends who has the better arguement(Reason we have lawyers).

They really do rely on people not understanding, and fall into line like the GM discussion, but if you know your stuff, you CAN get them to back off.

It's the same as taking it up with the store manager, usually you can get your way or some of it if you make a scene, and have the facts behind you.

Example: I can make a scene about this GM situation about saying Windower is illegal by geting information from server. This is proven to be not true. Therefore that alone, can land the GM in trouble if I make a big enough scene. It's false accusation.

[little ninja]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

the player reminds me of a 13 year old. once the gm bullied him. the poor kid crumbled.

[Tokitoki]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

It seems a friend of mine has found a process viewer in the POL client. I dont know how/where he foudn it but he is in the process of looking of the lisence agreement to see if it says anything about it. If it doesnt its a very illegal action. (according to him, im no lawyer ;p)

[lionx]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Ah but then couldnt people also fight back with bots and the sort if the windower can as well..? a Then people will say GMs are useless and etc.