is using the windower cheating?

[Xyphere]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

The windower just makes everything easier and more fun. Unless you're using it for hacks, I don't see what's the damage in using it. Maybe with the plugins it's more-so against the ToS, but I like being able to surf the net when I'm waiting for a PT/ need info on an item or NM.

[Macht]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Yeah, as was posted on the other thread about the windower with a conversation with a GM. The GM seemed to be specifically targeting players using the windower with those plug-ins. If the GM is able to identify someone reading the data in the memory for the game or packet sniffing that maybe they found a way to monitor those, so I would think the previous versions of the windower without those plug-ins are basically safe.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

I want gil to make my name bold so.... uh...

Windower aint cheating cause I say so ;o.

[DakAttack]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Ibtl

[kuu]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Yeah, as was posted on the other thread about the windower with a conversation with a GM. The GM seemed to be specifically targeting players using the windower with those plug-ins. If the GM is able to identify someone reading the data in the memory for the game or packet sniffing that maybe they found a way to monitor those, so I would think the previous versions of the windower without those plug-ins are basically safe.

Wrong

Windower does not send any information to the server. You can read it straight from the developers themselves. It is only reading what's there.

GMs can't detect windowers with plugins.

They can detect windower if they implimented some kind of spyware like function, but they can't not do it through their servers. There is no distinction between windower with plugins and without plugins.

Windower itself naturally hide itself pretty well because it's hooking DX calls, which ffxi sends. This means it's like stealing the package after it was signed at the office. To pol and ffxi, its job is done.

Any GMs that saids "Depending on which version of windower you have, I can ban you" You can lie through your teeth or plead the fifth.

What the GM did is similar to why the maranda rights came into being in the US. You are not obligated to say anything till you get a lawyer. To bad GMs aren't cops, or you would sue them for that.

[Reisuki]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Remember, what ever you do now out of selfishness, you will pay for later(and I'm not speaking religiously, or in a religious context. It's just the way the universe works. Nothing comes without a price. For ever action, there is a reaction.).

Evidence, please. >.>

Yeah GMs can't detect the windower. They can only assume and try to make you confess but they have no proof you acctually use one. Even if you say you are in party chat or LS chat you can just tell the GM "I was lieing, I just wanted to be cool ._."

[csBahamut]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Evidence, please. >.>

Some people can see it, some people can't. Just like some people mature as they get older, and some never do. The proof is right in front of you. you experience it every day. Those who have lived longer have a greater chance of noticing this, especially the people who think about such things.

[Alontier]

Re: is using the windower cheating?



GM's are getting tougher^^

[Manatra]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

The GMs can't tell if you're using a Windower, it'd require some Punkbuster/VAC/Cheating-Death type implementation into FFXI.

By some people's logic in this thread, using Ventrilo, FRAPs, or running Winamp in the background while playing is cheating too...

[kuu]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

The GMs can't tell if you're using a Windower, it'd require some Punkbuster/VAC/Cheating-Death type implementation into FFXI.

By some people's logic in this thread, using Ventrilo, FRAPs, or running Winamp in the background while playing is cheating too...

The less technical people will fall for it sadly.

"Do you know why you're being punish?" Is the oldest trick in the book. It's making you admit something.

They should of clamp their mouths shut when the GM asked What does this new windower do.

In the real world GMs are playing very unfair, but you're breaking ToS here, not the law.
Well They probably have their own notes on this bait and catch tricks. Just don't fall for it.

Also can we stop pasting that GM discussion everywere? It's becoming harder to keep from repeating arguements.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Lach /tells me "I love you" at the sight of me, I wonder why ( '3')...

[csBahamut]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

In the real world GMs are playing very unfair, but you're breaking ToS here, not the law.

The thing is, it's SE's game. So according to laws, what SE wants to do with their game and servers is up to them. If they want to ban people from accessing their servers, real world laws will back them up. And if they didn't, then people could use the loophole to gain access to top secrect government servers, or company servers with proprietary information.

I'm not sure is SE really plans to get every Windower user. Scare tactics is one way in which a 'ruler' or 'government' will try to control the population. They'll make a few eamples of people. Let the word spread, and hope fear makes the people obey. Though, knowing SE's track record with previous bannings, they will go through everyone. They're more likeing using these examples in hopes of making people stop now so they don't have to ban them later.

[kuu]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

The thing is, it's SE's game. So according to laws, what SE wants to do with their game and servers is up to them. If they want to ban people from accessing their servers, real world laws will back them up. And if they didn't, then people could use the loophole to gain access to top secrect government servers, or company servers with proprietary information.

Reading from memory is not secret information, it won't hold up in court. Under various reverse engineer court proceedings. Basically you are "Reading what's there". If you don't want someone reading the memory, encrypt it or just don't send it. As one programer said, S-E puts way too much into the memory that's not needed in the client, if they open their door to thieves, they have no right to complain.

I'm not sure is SE really plans to get every Windower user. Scare tactics is one way in which a 'ruler' or 'government' will try to control the population. They'll make a few eamples of people. Let the word spread, and hope fear makes the people obey. Though, knowing SE's track record with previous bannings, they will go through everyone. They're more likeing using these examples in hopes of making people stop now so they don't have to ban them later.

Nope. Laws back up ToS.

FFxi ToS has been gone over by various people including law grads, and given the situations, you can bring a civil suit to S-E based on QoS laws in US. Of course most people would just quit rather then bring suit, so a suit isn't coming, but there has been even more frivious QoS suits in history that settled, so don't hold me on that.

Of course this isn't limited to S-E, any other games will fall into similar.

With that being said, I do not believe S-E is doing a bad job. They have their own PR and management issues. They are not your friends, but they're not your enemies either.

Mangament can be the biggest evils in the world, but they're around for a reason. This damage control event is somewhat baddly handled, but it's handled. If you have ever seen Ragnarok online damage control tactics, S-E will seem like perfectionist.

[csBahamut]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Reading from memory is not secret information, it won't hold up in court. Under various reverse engineer court proceedings. Basically you are "Reading what's there". If you don't want someone reading the memory, encrypt it or just don't send it. As one programer said, S-E puts way too much into the memory that's not needed in the client, if they open their door to thieves, they have no right to complain.

What you said is true, but is not at all what I was refering to. I'm not refering to reading your computer memory. SE has control over who has access to their server. If they don't want to let you have access, they can not let you have access for whatever reason they care to give. If they suspect you of cheating and want to ban you from accessing the FFXI servers(which prevents you from playing the game), then they can do it. If they don't like you because your dog is black with brown spots, they can still ban you from accessing their server. They don't even have to give a reason.

[QUOTE=kuu]Nope. Laws back up ToS.

FFxi ToS has been gone over by various people including law grads, and given the situations, you can bring a civil suit to S-E based on QoS laws in US. Of course most people would just quit rather then bring suit, so a suit isn't coming, but there has been even more frivious QoS suits in history that settled, so don't hold me on that.[\QUOTE]

I do not see what you are trying to get at here. It has no correllation with what you quoted from me. If you could explain a little further on what point you're trying to get at here?

After thinking a bit, I might be onto what you were thinking. No, the ToS is not a governmental law. Sometimes it holds up in court, sometimes it doesn't, but that's not what I was refering to. Anytime there is a group of two or more people together in a society, there will be rules or guidlines that those people will follow, whether they be written, made laws by a government, physical laws of nature, or cultural curtesies. No matter what you want to call it, or what category you put it in, it's still a set of rules for people to makes decisions based on. That's what SE uses the ToS for. It tells the player what rules SE will use to decide whether they will let you play or not. Follow their rules, and they'll let you play their game. Don't follow them, and there's no binding agreement that says they have to let you play. They can not let you play if they so choose. They can also decide your punishment for breaking those rules(within limits on higher levels of laws, i.e. State or National laws). And I wouldn't trust what any lawyer type person says about this. They can make fine educated guesses, but until it actually goes to court, what they said is still only an educated guess. They can be wrong. Decisions can also be overturned later.

[QUOTE=kuu]With that being said, I do not believe S-E is doing a bad job. They have their own PR and management issues. They are not your friends, but they're not your enemies either.

Mangament can be the biggest evils in the world, but they're around for a reason. This damage control event is somewhat baddly handled, but it's handled. If you have ever seen Ragnarok online damage control tactics, S-E will seem like perfectionist.[\QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more. Not one gaming company has been able to effectively curb game cheating. Valve seems to be doing the best, maybe, but that's only based on what I can see as a player. People have gotten pretty good at hiding their cheating in CS and the like.

Heh, management. They will do what is in the best interest of the company. Sometimes it will be good for the players. Sometimes it won't be. As long as it's worth the cost, they will do it.

[Kailea]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

If you have ever seen Ragnarok online damage control tactics, S-E will seem like perfectionist.

oh god....its why I stopped playing -.-