is using the windower cheating?

[Siber]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Cheating isn't just plain old "cheating." You can think Windower is cheating all you want, but obviously Vinen and I disagree. It may be cheating in the end to you, but you cannot classify it w/ MrArgus and ffxipos otherwise you have some serious judgement issues. Do you think FRAPs and Clipper are cheats though? They're third party programs, too. Crazy, I know.

[Kailea]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Most PS2 people are not close to their computers when playing. Therefore its the same inconvienence to get up, go in another room, surf, print something out, and come back to you PS2 as it is for a PC player to log out and do the same. So saying that we don't have a leg up on them by having a windower is incorrect.

The topic is "is using the windower cheating". Now I know its difficult for people to stay on topic but that is what I'm addressing. Since the definition of cheating is:

Cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

A windower is indeed cheating. It is against the TOS which is breaking the rules and fits the definition to a tee. People are trying to justify the degree of the cheating now. That is not what the topic is about. Its like a murderer saying "Well your worse than me cause you did 1st degree murder and mine was 2nd!" Murder is murder, cheating is cheating. Simple logic and honesty, try it sometime.

Not useing 3rd party programs is a policy not a rule :p
Anyway, you are wrong, loging out and geing info and loging back is is WAY more trouble some then saying "afk for a sec" and looking up something on another PC, so Windower is a balancer. and yes 1degree murder is worse then 2nd...yeah you killed him but 1 is badder then 2
speed hacks are badd.....teleport hacks are bad.....windower is not harmful in anyway, and saying it is just because SE said "we dont want you using it" is just ignorant.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Not useing 3rd party programs is a policy not a rule :p
Anyway, you are wrong, loging out and geing info and loging back is is WAY more trouble some then saying "afk for a sec" and looking up something on another PC, so Windower is a balancer. and yes 1degree murder is worse then 2nd...yeah you killed him but 1 is badder then 2
speed hacks are badd.....teleport hacks are bad.....windower is not harmful in anyway, and saying it is just because SE said "we dont want you using it" is just ignorant.

Wow, you seriously think that if someone murders someone and gets murder 2 that they are better than a 1st degree murderer? Wow....just wow...

Yes speed hacks are bad, teleport hacks are bad and they are both cheating. I fail to see the logic in many posts because its very cut and dry. Cheating is cheating. Windowers fit the definition of cheating so therefore it is cheating. Nowhere in the topic does it state "To what degree do you feel using a windower is cheating?". If it did then I would say its the low fish in the barrel as long as its not used in conjunction with any other malicious cheats.

As I stated before, I USE A WINDOWER. I also stated I don't feel badly about it except for having an advantage over certain groups of players. Do I agree with the TOS? No I don't. Do I think they should have a official windower for FFXI? Yes I do. Am I one of the few people that can be honest with themselves about the fact that they are cheating? Apparently.

[neighbortaru]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

many have learned to ignore Kailea, you will too in time.

cheating has such a negative tone to it, I prefer "bending the rules"

[Siber]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

TheGrandMom... are you ever going to address anything I've said or are you just going to ignore it? I can repeat a few points that I'd like to hear what you have to say on.

You got your defintion (or atleast it seems like you did) from dictionary.com, and the example they gave was to cheat at a game of cards. This means like slipping Aces up your sleeve, thus altering the game rules. I think you misunderstand the "as in a game" part. To break the rules of a game mean to defy how the game was established, as in teleport from point A to point B, provoke a monster before it spawns, climb cliffs and sit on tents with no way up. The windower breaks the ToS agreement, which are not the "game rules." They are rules that are established inorder for you to have access to the game and thus get to the real game rules. That's how I see it atleast. I admit that using a windower is breaking a set of rules, but in no way is it cheating.

Do you think FRAPs and Clipper are cheats though? They're third party programs, too.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Yes I guess the connotation of the word "cheating" does come across in a negative manner to people. But since the topic included the word, its just what I happened to use. I guess its just hard for me to understand because I can internalize that I'm cheating and accept it.

TheGrandMom... are you ever going to address anything I've said or are you just going to ignore it? I can repeat a few points that I'd like to hear what you have to say on.

Yes thank you for proving my point. In Websters it says "to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)". Notice the parentheses. They are put there to give you examples not to say ONLY in card games or in examinations. So does a windower violate rules dishonestly? Yes it does.

Ok so that answers your dictionary.com question.

As far as you agreeing to the TOS, but not seeing them as "game rules". Maybe I should quote:

They are rules that are established inorder for you to have access to the game and thus get to the real game rules.

This TOTALLY baffles me. I have no idea what your saying. Agreeing to the TOS is just that, agreeing that you will not use 3rd pt programs. Sorry your version of logic baffles me.

As far as the other programs you speak of, I do not use them. I imagine if they are breaking the TOS, then you should not use them. Since I don't use them, I really have nothing to say about them.

[Vinen]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Not useing 3rd party programs is a policy not a rule :p
Anyway, you are wrong, loging out and geing info and loging back is is WAY more trouble some then saying "afk for a sec" and looking up something on another PC, so Windower is a balancer. and yes 1degree murder is worse then 2nd...yeah you killed him but 1 is badder then 2
speed hacks are badd.....teleport hacks are bad.....windower is not harmful in anyway, and saying it is just because SE said "we dont want you using it" is just ignorant.

Actually, because its in the EULA. A binding agreement between you and the company. Its the terms underwhich you accept the lisence to use the product. The EULA may or may not be a legaly binding contract (I'm not sure on this, I've heard it is and I've heard it isn't).

You anaology is crap and is warped. I have to agree with TheGrandMom on that.

EDIT in response to TheGrandMom's post above.

Here is my personal definition of cheating with relation to online gaming.

Something done unintentionally or intentionally for benefit to oneself which breaks an agreement or rules and harms another player or the company running the game either directly or indirectly.

A Windower does not fall under this catagory in my mind.

[neighbortaru]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

my 2 cents,
Cheating is breaking the TOS (subset)
Breaking the TOS is not necessarily cheating (superset)

using FRAPS, Windower, etc. falls under breaking TOS
using speed hack, tele hack, etc. falls under cheating

[Siber]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Yes I guess the connotation of the word "cheating" does come across in a negative manner to people. But since the topic included the word, its just what I happened to use. I guess its just hard for me to understand because I can internalize that I'm cheating and accept it.

I can accept if I cheat too; don't act all high and mighty. I use hacks, I've tested them, I've tested and created my own bots as well for FFXI and other games. Fish botting, I've done it and made my own bot. AH Bots, I've used 'em once just for kicks. MrArgus, Superclimb, ffxipos, and StriderBoots: all been used. OpenGL hacks for FPSs, I've used them. Speed hacks and aimbots: I've used them as well. I understand perfectly what cheating is, and I can easily accept that I cheat. Does it bother me? Hell no. I don't do it often, and if I do try them, I don't continue to use them after I've played with them. But I still understand that I've cheated and "[I] accept it." Windower is not cheating. I disproved the definition you gave, so instead of ignoring me, try countering it instead of trying to use other people to beat the dead horse that is your point.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

I can accept if I cheat too; don't act all high and mighty. I use hacks, I've tested them, I've tested and created my own bots as well for FFXI and other games. Fish botting, I've done it and made my own bot. AH Bots, I've used 'em once just for kicks. MrArgus, Superclimb, ffxipos, and StriderBoots: all been used. OpenGL hacks for FPSs, I've used them. Speed hacks and aimbots: I've used them as well. I understand perfectly what cheating is, and I can easily accept that I cheat. Does it bother me? Hell no. I don't do it often, and if I do try them, I don't continue to use them after I've played with them. But I still understand that I've cheated and "[I] accept it." Windower is not cheating. I disproved the definition you gave, so instead of ignoring me, try countering it instead of trying to use other people to beat the dead horse that is your point.

LOL You really do take things too seriously. I never said anything to be all "high and mighty". I commented that I can accept it. Did I say that you can not? No. So please stop being so defensive and taking things so personally when nothing is even aimed at you.

If you don't feel guilty for cheating, then bully for you! More power to you! But a windower IS cheating. It fits the definition no matter how much you wish to warp it. Since you don't feel guilty cheating, why should you care so passionately?

EDIT in response to TheGrandMom's post above.

Here is my personal definition of cheating with relation to online gaming.

Something done unintentionally or intentionally for benefit to oneself which breaks an agreement or rules and harms another player or the company running the game either directly or indirectly.

A Windower does not fall under this catagory in my mind.

Well someone could argue the point that it does, in a way, harm another player. With your ability to see tp, mobs health, have maps, etc you have an advantage over others that do not have it. This gives you a leg up on being a more efficient player than others and may influence your chances at getting pt's over someone that does not have this advantage. So, inadvertantly, you are "harming" them. As I stated before, I feel guilty only to the point that I have an advantage over some others. SE could easily fix this by implementing these features but thats going to be a cold day in hell. LOL

[Vinen]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Well someone could argue the point that it does, in a way, harm another player. With your ability to see tp, mobs health, have maps, etc you have an advantage over others that do not have it. This gives you a leg up on being a more efficient player than others and may influence your chances at getting pt's over someone that does not have this advantage. So, inadvertantly, you are "harming" them. As I stated before, I feel guilty only to the point that I have an advantage over some others. SE could easily fix this by implementing these features but thats going to be a cold day in hell. LOL

Wooooow slow down there Cowgirl. Nowhere did I say anything about using plugins or anything. I just said Windower. I agree, those are cheating, "IF THEY ARE BUILT INTO THE WINDOWER OR READ FFXIS MEMORY." Otherwise its no differnt then having a second computer on the internet at the same time.

I am currently cheating in FFXI because the windower I use has these build into them. I havent figured out how to turn them off (Haven't looked into it), personally they annoy me. I don't like text overlay.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Wooooow slow down there Cowgirl. Nowhere did I say anything about using plugins or anything. I just said Windower. I agree, those are cheating, "IF THEY ARE BUILT INTO THE WINDOWER OR READ FFXIS MEMORY."

The new version of the windower has many of these features, so its a valid point to say you do have an advantage if you use this windower. Many people do, the d/l count at the site doesn't lie. LOL

[Macht]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Macht, I guess that could make sense, but it doesn't to me at the same time. Why would it have to send to my client the TP of the PLD or WHM in my party? Why does my client need to know that? Why can't their client just do the TP checks, and if the PLD has enough TP, the client tells the server that the player is trying to do a WS, and has enough TP to do it so have all the other clients display that action? Whether it's in the memory or being sent to my computer but not stored in memory, I question why my client has to go through that info anyways.

It's easier, why have the server handle all the stress when you can pass some of it to the clients to handle as well?

It like giving a 1,000,000,000 report to a single person and expect it to be finished in a day. If the person is able to chunk it down to 1,000 pages each and spread out to people who have nothing else to do then he get it done faster with less stress.

[Siber]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Ok so that answers your dictionary.com question.

So by changing your defintion after I invalidate your old one, you've answered the question? I'm sorry, but that's not going to fly. With your new definition, how is Windower "dishonest" in how it breaks the rules? Otherwise, my same statement still holds true.

This TOTALLY baffles me. I have no idea what your saying. Agreeing to the TOS is just that, agreeing that you will not use 3rd pt programs.

No shit Sherlock; as I have said before, no one disagrees that we're breaking rules. Everyone understands that using windower is breaking a rule. The quote you used once again applies to your initial definition. the ToS agreement is -not- the game rules; they are terms that you agree to inorder to play the game. There's a difference.

And the other programs I speak of, FRAPs and Clipper, are third party programs. So by your definition, they're cheats. But try to guess what they do, just guess. Here, I'll tell you. They take... pictures! So obviously that's cheating because it breaks the ToS agreement.

To turn off the plugins, go to the script directory > init.txt. Comment out "load TParty" by adding // in front of the line so it should look like "//load TParty" The same can be done to all the other plugins if you'd like.

[Vinen]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

The new version of the windower has many of these features, so its a valid point to say you do have an advantage if you use this windower. Many people do, the d/l count at the site doesn't lie. LOL

Your definition is that windower. Windower does not mean windower written by arch... whatever his name is. It just means running an application which was not programed to run in a window.......... in a window using a 3rd party application... the windower. Yes, we have an advantage with THAT windower. NO, we did not have an advantage with the previous versions of the windower.