is using the windower cheating?

[Tokitoki]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

PS2 people can also go onto their computer while FFXI takes up our whole computer. If they would just make a windowed version of the game LIKE EVERY OTHER MMO IVE PLAYED we wouldnt ahve this problem. Cheating is breaking rules, thats great, if using a program to so a simple thing that the programmers are keeping us from doing ie. using our computer other than for their damn game, im going to break teh rules. Using the windower doesnt harm anyone else in any way. Dont go around saying bots and speed hacks are the same as a windower just because they are 3rd party programs. If you look at the uses of each and stop saying "its cheat cause it breaks the rules its all teh same" youd realize that. Bots take any challenege out of the gaem, give unfair advantages, and are keeping others from having a good experience. Windower... it um... lets you browse the internet... and you can um... look something up before someone else.... OH LORD IM A BAD BOY!

[Unicron]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

i think that SE should develop their own version of the windower, or make ffxi able to be minimized w/o crashing, this is the main reason why people use it. So they can do other things besides ffxi if they are waiting to be invited to a party, or if they are waiting for a mob to spawn. If SE has a problem with 3rd party programs then SE should make their own which would not create a breach in the user agreement, there is a high enough demand for it, and it wouldnt take much work to make, just make it available to download off the playonline website, to be used as a different option for users playing on the pc.

i'm not talking about morals or rules, but ther obviously is a demand for ffxi to be able to be played windowed or the ability for it to be minimized, and SE would be wise to have the developers put in a new system to enable this for the pc users.

[Macht]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

I said the ability to be windowed, timers, and a map are okay. I think all of them should have been in the game in the first place, but obviously they are not. The only thing I have against the map is if it would get rid of the need for widescan for all jobs. If the map did like Widescan for RNG and BST appropriately, that's fine, but if it gave widescan to all jobs then I can see that being a problem.

The idea of creating these monitors for viewing TP and such is a good idea. I would suggest sending it to SE in the "Comments and Suggestions" area so they can take care of it and maintain a balance playground for all players regardless of media they use.

The thing is though, if SE never already considered that, why would the information be stored on the client side memory? I think SE probably thought that over and for some reason decided later to not included it, but they left the information in memory for some reason.

Actually from the data I've seen packet sniffers show that all the data that is relivant to that zone is sent to everyone in that zone, it is the client that determines what is relivant to you. I guess this to be for speed issues. This also means people using a program that sniffs the packets can actually see LS conversations from everyone in that zone. So because the windower is able to see info of others TP does not mean they considered the idea.

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

i dont see anything wrong with windower 3.01 and before. 3.2 is helpful...but it /is/ a cheat though it has features the game should have anyway. 3.01 and earlier, to my knowledge, didnt allow you to do anything you couldnt do anyway legally if you had enough money IRL. You can easily buy a second PC if you can afford it to surf the web while you play FFXI. However, reading game memory to keep track of all MP and TP, as well as bloodpact timers does violate scruples...even through the features are so simple they should be in the game anyway...meh...its still cheating in a way. Anyway....I can see suspension and warnings for windower 3.2....but I dont see any reason to do the same for earlier versions of windower.

[Macht]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

i dont see anything wrong with windower 3.01 and before. 3.2 is helpful...but it /is/ a cheat though it has features the game should have anyway. 3.01 and earlier, to my knowledge, didnt allow you to do anything you couldnt do anyway legally if you had enough money IRL. You can easily buy a second PC if you can afford it to surf the web while you play FFXI. However, reading game memory to keep track of all MP and TP, as well as bloodpact timers does violate scruples...even through the features are so simple they should be in the game anyway...meh...its still cheating in a way. Anyway....I can see suspension and warnings for windower 3.2....but I dont see any reason to do the same for earlier versions of windower.

That I can agree with.

[Paul]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

This windower is a hack and it is indeed cheating and should not be used and it is totally against the ToS. You can get banned for using it if you are reported to a GM. It opens the door for far worse hacks. I myself would never use it cause I am totally against cheating in online games. If Square wanted the game to have a windowed mode they would have put it in the game themself. If you want to do something else on your computer then log out its as simple as that. I do it all the time if I want to look up a quest, or i use my 2nd PC which is right near the one I play FFXI on. I am really hope Squre finally fixes FFXI in the next version up and totally make it so these hacks like windower don't work. It would cut down on the number of voke bots, movenment hacks and map hacks. Cause of this crap people can move all they way across a map within seconds, i seen the videos of it.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Its very useful for buidling TP before god fights ;3.

And very useful in promys.

Cheating? meh... infinte lives is cheating!

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

This windower is a hack and it is indeed cheating and should not be used and it is totally against the ToS. You can get banned for using it if you are reported to a GM. It opens the door for far worse hacks. I myself would never use it cause I am totally against cheating in online games. If Square wanted the game to have a windowed mode they would have put it in the game themself. If you want to do something else on your computer then log out its as simple as that. I do it all the time if I want to look up a quest, or i use my 2nd PC which is right near the one I play FFXI on. I am really hope Squre finally fixes FFXI in the next version up and totally make it so these hacks like windower don't work. It would cut down on the number of voke bots, movenment hacks and map hacks. Cause of this crap people can move all they way across a map within seconds, i seen the videos of it.

Actually the X Y Z hacks have nothing to do with windower and they can be run while the game is in full-screen mode ^^ All the incarnations of windower before the newest one have been only for playing FFXI windowed, no plugins or anything that would affect gameplay. For example, I personally dont consider making your moogle look like garuda or whatever cheating because it doesnt affect gameplay in the slightest. I don't do this myself but I see nothing wrong with it. Now windower, the newest version I can see why people get warnings because of the plugins that effect gameplay. However previous windowers only allow you to shift focus on your PC. I personally dont have the money to buy a second PC just to look at emails and such as I do things in-game which just have you sitting in one spot waiting for people doing nothing.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

PS2 people can also go onto their computer while FFXI takes up our whole computer. If they would just make a windowed version of the game LIKE EVERY OTHER MMO IVE PLAYED we wouldnt ahve this problem. Cheating is breaking rules, thats great, if using a program to so a simple thing that the programmers are keeping us from doing ie. using our computer other than for their damn game, im going to break teh rules. Using the windower doesnt harm anyone else in any way. Dont go around saying bots and speed hacks are the same as a windower just because they are 3rd party programs. If you look at the uses of each and stop saying "its cheat cause it breaks the rules its all teh same" youd realize that. Bots take any challenege out of the gaem, give unfair advantages, and are keeping others from having a good experience. Windower... it um... lets you browse the internet... and you can um... look something up before someone else.... OH LORD IM A BAD BOY!

Most PS2 people are not close to their computers when playing. Therefore its the same inconvienence to get up, go in another room, surf, print something out, and come back to you PS2 as it is for a PC player to log out and do the same. So saying that we don't have a leg up on them by having a windower is incorrect.

The topic is "is using the windower cheating". Now I know its difficult for people to stay on topic but that is what I'm addressing. Since the definition of cheating is:

Cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

A windower is indeed cheating. It is against the TOS which is breaking the rules and fits the definition to a tee. People are trying to justify the degree of the cheating now. That is not what the topic is about. Its like a murderer saying "Well your worse than me cause you did 1st degree murder and mine was 2nd!" Murder is murder, cheating is cheating. Simple logic and honesty, try it sometime.

[grunion]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

it used to be a poll but they removed the voting

last time i checked the top options were:
using any third party program is cheating
using windower only is ok

not many votes for the other stuff

[Siber]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

Most PS2 people are not close to their computers when playing.

That is one hell of a blanket statement. So are you going to tell us you polled all the PS2 players (or a majority of them) and most of them said that? I doubt it. I think people understand that using a Windower is breaking the rules, no question about that. But to call it cheating is taking it too far. You claim to be a mother and a grandmother, so I would hope you'd know the difference between just breaking rules and cheating.

You got your defintion (or atleast it seems like you did) from dictionary.com, and the example they gave was to cheat at a game of cards. This means like slipping Aces up your sleeve, thus altering the game rules. I think you misunderstand the "as in a game" part. To break the rules of a game mean to defy how the game was established, as in teleport from point A to point B, provoke a monster before it spawns, climb cliffs and sit on tents with no way up. The windower breaks the ToS agreement, which are not the "game rules." They are rules that are established inorder for you to have access to the game and thus get to the real game rules. That's how I see it atleast. I admit that using a windower is breaking a set of rules, but in no way is it cheating.

Macht, I guess that could make sense, but it doesn't to me at the same time. Why would it have to send to my client the TP of the PLD or WHM in my party? Why does my client need to know that? Why can't their client just do the TP checks, and if the PLD has enough TP, the client tells the server that the player is trying to do a WS, and has enough TP to do it so have all the other clients display that action? Whether it's in the memory or being sent to my computer but not stored in memory, I question why my client has to go through that info anyways.

[Vinen]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

You got your defintion (or atleast it seems like you did) from dictionary.com, and the example they gave was to cheat at a game of cards. This means like slipping Aces up your sleeve, thus altering the game rules. I think you misunderstand the "as in a game" part. To break the rules of a game mean to defy how the game was established, as in teleport from point A to point B, provoke a monster before it spawns, climb cliffs and sit on tents with no way up. The windower breaks the ToS agreement, which are not the "game rules." They are rules that are established inorder for you to have access to the game and thus get to the real game rules. That's how I see it atleast. I admit that using a windower is breaking a set of rules, but in no way is it cheating.

Damn.. you beat me to it haha. This is how I view it.

Anyhow,

Main Entry: 1cheat
Pronunciation: 'chEt
Function: verb
transitive senses
1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive senses
1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)
2 : to be sexually unfaithful -- usually used with on

[Pebbles]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

The topic is "is using the windower cheating". Now I know its difficult for people to stay on topic but that is what I'm addressing. Since the definition of cheating is:

Cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

A windower is indeed cheating. It is against the TOS which is breaking the rules and fits the definition to a tee. People are trying to justify the degree of the cheating now. That is not what the topic is about. Its like a murderer saying "Well your worse than me cause you did 1st degree murder and mine was 2nd!" Murder is murder, cheating is cheating. Simple logic and honesty, try it sometime.

I agree.

I do have one problem with the TOS though, and that is that it's over-broad. They have a provision that prohibits the use of cheat programs and devices, which is clear enough (and I agree that the latest Windower, because of its inclusion of those plugins, falls squarely into that category).
But there is also the rule about 3rd party programs (TPP), which is is extremely broad - it says that the use of any TPP, other than those supplied or provided by S/E, is prohibited. Note that it fails to specify whether this applies only while FFXI is running or not. As such, they can claim that use of things like the ModelViewer(*) and my own POLUtils is prohibited use of 3rd party programs; heck they could even ban you for having Notepad/AIM/WinAmp/... open while FFXI is running if they felt like it (not that it's likely they ever will). Because of this, I find it difficult to simply claim that any violation of the TPP rule is automatically cheating.


(*) Note that using the ModelViewer to create forum signatures is also against the TOS, as you end up creating a derived work from S/E's intellectual property which you're not leggally allowed to distribute without their consent (the same goes for FRAPS-based screenshots). But that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

My statement about PS2'ers is obvious. While pt'd up people would try to form a skillchain and the PS2'ers would inevitably say "My computer is in another room so I can't look it up.". This happens very often in pt's I'm in so therefore many people don't have this advantage. And the amount does not matter, if just one person does not have this advantage then my point still applies. And FYI, this is getting totally taken out of context. If you would read ALL the posts, the PS2 point was made by me saying that I did not feel badly about using a windower what made me feel bad is that the PS2'ers do not have this advantage. Then people took the comment and ran with it as you are.

Yes thank you for proving my point. In Websters it says "to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)". Notice the parentheses. They are put there to give you examples not to say ONLY in card games or in examinations. So does a windower violate rules dishonestly? Yes it does.

The point of the thread is simple but people are trying to take it to varying degrees. This is cheating but its not as bad as..... Simply and logically, cheating is cheating. You can justify the degree of indiscretion all you want but in the end....its cheating.

I agree.

I do have one problem with the TOS though, and that is that it's over-broad. They have a provision that prohibits the use of cheat programs and devices, which is clear enough (and I agree that the latest Windower, because of its inclusion of those plugins, falls squarely into that category).
But there is also the rule about 3rd party programs (TPP), which is is extremely broad - it says that the use of any TPP, other than those supplied or provided by S/E, is prohibited. Note that it fails to specify whether this applies only while FFXI is running or not. As such, they can claim that use of things like the ModelViewer(*) and my own POLUtils is prohibited use of 3rd party programs; heck they could even ban you for having Notepad/AIM/WinAmp/... open while FFXI is running if they felt like it (not that it's likely they ever will). Because of this, I find it difficult to simply claim that any violation of the TPP rule is automatically cheating.


(*) Note that using the ModelViewer to create forum signatures is also against the TOS, as you end up creating a derived work from S/E's intellectual property which you're not leggally allowed to distribute without their consent (the same goes for FRAPS-based screenshots). But that's a whole different kettle of fish.

I absolutely agree. I never said I was in agreement with the TOS, I just posted about what the topic addressed. I even admitted to using one myself. But I also can realize that I'm breaking the TOS and therefore cheating. Some people have a hard time with this. LOL

[little ninja]

Re: is using the windower cheating?

its like a GM once told me. "people who use fish bots are ok as long as they are present at there computer." so i ask you what is the difference between those fishing bots ( that all used 3rd party programs) an the windower. an i dont see what the big deal is with seeing the other players TP vs players who flooded the market with gil/fish.

why do i feel like the NA community is targeted by S.E. the cheats were around for jp players, yet as soon as the NA get wind of it. our windower is attacked..





Double Post Edited:
an all a GM can bitch about is that we can see a players TP...