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OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

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  • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

    Originally posted by Rones
    That is why I commonly refered to it as the maximum horizontal velocity and did mention gravity affecting its downward velocity. However, only air resistance will affect the horizontal velocity after it leaves the gun/bow which will be miner. Gravity will typically pull a horizontally fired bullet/arrow into the ground before air resistance plays much of a role.

    p = m * v Thank you Ice, that is the forumlea I was trying to think of earlier when kuu brought up F = m * a.
    Should note that the v should be v^2. It's not really momentum that's calculated, but energy. Interestingly, increasing velocity adds damage by the square--which is why something moving twice as fast nets four times the damage, which is handy to know why people start dying really easily in car accidents above a certain threshold, even if it seems low speed.

    Air resistance still has a significant effect on ranged performance. It limits the performance of arrows much faster than bullets because of the higher surface area drag, but even bullets have fairly sharp power drop offs as range increases. Ballistic tests at firing ranges show an exponential drop off in power delivered on target as range increases. Close ranges it's negligable, but certain bullets have trouble piercing certain armors at more than medium ranges, and it's from air resistance.

    In the case of flechette (arrow-like) projectiles, the method of flight is different from bullets. Flechettes have a very flat trajectory for most of their flight path, then suddenly drop off as air resistance slows them down. They rely on a fluid--in this case air to keep them aloft by increasing resistance to any movement except forward. (Although they rely on resistance to stay pointed forward) When the air resistance slows down the speed and movement resistance is compromised, gravity takes over and pulls the projectile back down. Air resistance is everything here--it helps and it hurts. It matters more than gravity in this case.

    Bow fired arrows work a little different, since they don't achieve the speed of anything near your standard flechette, used by shotguns, tanks, and various experimental small arms. Since they don't have the sheer velocity, air slows them down to the point that gravity takes over much sooner. Hence you see them used more like mortar fire in a large arc over a battlefield, so that in conjunction with gravity, they can achieve a higher terminal velocity by the time they impact.

    Bullets also display this, but to a lesser degree as they don't have enough surface area to create the same 'lift-like' effect. Horizontal performance is less hindered, but all bullets have a pronouced balistic curve.

    A fluid like air is very important to the flight characteristics of pojectiles. In a vacum, all objects will fall very fast, at the max speed that gravity will accelerate. A piece of paper will fall at 9.8m/s^2, just the way a bullet will after leaving the barrel. But add in air, and things fall much more slowly, and at differing rates depending on a huge number of factors.

    But as Icemage said, in the end it's about pressure delivered on target. It's why knives go though bulletproof vests, while the rounded bullet of a standard pistol doesn't.
    Last edited by fuz; 07-05-2005, 04:40 PM.

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    • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

      Originally posted by Macht
      Also Icemage is right an object fired in a downward direction is going to gain acceleration friction from air is nearly uneffecting once the object reaches a certain acceleration. With it being fired downward it reaches that acceleration for air to not be an issue.

      Should be common sense, it's why you can get in a lot of trouble from tossing a penny off a skyscrapper. That penny will pick enough acceleration that if you hit someone you might as well of just shot them with a gun, it would of been less messy.
      But would the velocity from gravity over a distance be greater than the velocity it has at point blank range? Yes, archers did use gravity to help drop attacking soldiers, but if the archers had the same virtual invulnerability at ground lvl 3 feet from the enemy as they did high up in the castle, I'm sure they would have taken the shot 3 feet and just put it straight in his face.

      About the penny, keep in mind I only made an appearance in Physics class like 3 times the whole second semester, but as I recall, you can actually throw a penny faster than its terminal velocity from gravity. You dont even have to drop it off something as high as a skyscraper. Six Flags over Texas had a ride call the cliffhanger that dropped you roughly 100 feet. If you held out your hand with a penny on it, you would quickly out-accelerate the penny and it would appear to start to float up as you cart reached the bottom.
      I RNG 75 I WAR 37 I NIN 38 I SAM 50 I Woodworking 92+2

      PSN: Caspian

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      • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

        Doesn't anybody else see this will actually hurt WAR/NIN more than anything? Warrior is already looked down upon as a lesser tank compared to paladins and ninjas untill 74 usually and the main sub is Ninja so they will be hurting more than rangers and ninjas and forced to use /MNK. Rangers needed this as we all knew but it will not lower their overall damage just a RNG party wont be able to take IT ++ so easily and lessen the EXP they get down to a lower level with the rest of us, which is fair. As for ninja it was never intended to be a main tank, but SE needs to do something for warriors to make them respectable tanks again.
        PANDEMONIUM

        Nites 75RDM/BLM - Rank 10

        I need a buddy pass!

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        • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

          There it litle doubt that virtually any bow will give an arrow more velocity at inital release. Gravity and high ground is just a crutch to extend effective range. The only trouble is accuracy--if anyone's played an FPS, you know how difficult it can be to hit something that is moving at close range. At medium ranges, you don't have to spin circles to track a target, and at long ranges, fine control is a better attribute than 180 snap-to reflexes.

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          • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

            Originally posted by fuz
            There it litle doubt that virtually any bow will give an arrow more velocity at inital release. Gravity and high ground is just a crutch to extend effective range. The only trouble is accuracy--if anyone's played an FPS, you know how difficult it can be to hit something that is moving at close range. At medium ranges, you don't have to spin circles to track a target, and at long ranges, fine control is a better attribute than 180 snap-to reflexes.
            In the game though, that never really happens. Usually the mob is standing still, I'm standing still, and I have the arrow onle a foot from its head. I guess according to physics the only weapon that would actually benefit from a little bit of distance would be a shotgun (which doesnt exist in game). Even with a sawed-off you still about 10 feet to get maximum spread and tissue damage (though point blank will definately give you one seriously bad day).
            I RNG 75 I WAR 37 I NIN 38 I SAM 50 I Woodworking 92+2

            PSN: Caspian

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            • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

              The mob might be standing still, or 30 feet tall, but my drk still misses for whatever reason. I'm guessing it's just 'simulated' evasion movement.

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              • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                Originally posted by Prince Caspian
                About the penny, keep in mind I only made an appearance in Physics class like 3 times the whole second semester, but as I recall, you can actually throw a penny faster than its terminal velocity from gravity. You dont even have to drop it off something as high as a skyscraper. Six Flags over Texas had a ride call the cliffhanger that dropped you roughly 100 feet. If you held out your hand with a penny on it, you would quickly out-accelerate the penny and it would appear to start to float up as you cart reached the bottom.
                http://www.mythbustersfanclub.com/html/penny_drop.html

                Myth disproven.


                Icemage

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                • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                  I gave a slap to my self for breaking promises, so deleting now.
                  Last edited by kuu; 07-06-2005, 02:01 AM.

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                  • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                    Originally posted by Pounce
                    As for the census, Sepukku is right. I was amazed when I came back to FFXI after several months' hiatus, to see that all the DRKs, SAMs, DRGs, etc. that I had partied with as a RDM were now walking around in RNG AF ;p

                    Not to mention the census is heavily, heavily skewed towards basic jobs due to a number of factors that are questionable on S-E's part, IMHO.
                    If you wanna go the right way, level BLM and SMN to 75. They just pwn and unlike other jobs, they never get nerfed
                    The most depressing FFXI moment ever... http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/u...t/SNAG-783.jpg

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                    • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                      Your last post is somewhat unclear. Are you (Kuu) still holding to the belief that the bullet/arrow continues to accelerate after leaving the gun/bow and that maximum horizontal velocity is at some point beyond point blank?
                      remember that in physics nothing can magically "disappear", only countered with opposing forces.
                      Actually the lack of an opposing force can make acceleration 'disappear'. You can not get acceleration without an outside force. As that force is removed/goes to 0, the acceleration goes to 0 and the object continues on its own momentum/inertia until it encounters another object/force.
                      Whm 75 Blm 37 Brd 75 | Bastok Rank 10 | Whm > Rdm

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                      • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                        Originally posted by Asharu
                        If you wanna go the right way, level BLM and SMN to 75. They just pwn and unlike other jobs, they never get nerfed
                        err... explain to me how they pwn...

                        I'm assuming you mean in terms of damage againist a HNM...which isn't true. Not unless you carry 100 medicine with you...

                        It's all about tactics, sometimes it favors one job over another depending on conditions.

                        Though if a nerf does come, it will come in the form of TP gain from magic. RIght now the thing going for BLM is that there is no enemy TP gain.

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                        • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                          Actually enemies /do/ gain TP from spells, it just is minimal....like 5 TP per nuke or something.
                          Calin - Ragnarok

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                          • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                            Originally posted by Asharu
                            If you wanna go the right way, level BLM and SMN to 75. They just pwn and unlike other jobs, they never get nerfed
                            Smn used to do 5k~6k damage easy vs easy preys they got nerfed before ;/

                            Main : Sephiro
                            Mules : Sephira Eviljin Sephon
                            COP missions = Complated

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                            • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                              Originally posted by ClydeArrowny
                              Actually enemies /do/ gain TP from spells, it just is minimal....like 5 TP per nuke or something.
                              Really? I stand corrected. Though I would expect 10tp at least. That's around the level of a WS.

                              That's pretty balanced. A samurai or other melees can out sneak damages to kirin level HNM if they formed tactic around it.

                              Originally posted by l)@RK-l)EVIL
                              Smn used to do 5k~6k damage easy vs easy preys they got nerfed before ;/
                              They also killed megalith. I used to love that bp in earily levels..Now it's back to levi...
                              Last edited by kuu; 07-06-2005, 02:56 AM.

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                              • Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

                                Originally posted by kuu
                                err... explain to me how they pwn...

                                I'm assuming you mean in terms of damage againist a HNM...which isn't true. Not unless you carry 100 medicine with you...

                                It's all about tactics, sometimes it favors one job over another depending on conditions.

                                Though if a nerf does come, it will come in the form of TP gain from magic. RIght now the thing going for BLM is that there is no enemy TP gain.
                                Each nuke gives a mob 10tp
                                Enfeebling magic gives 0tp

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