OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

[Rones]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

Force = M(mass)*A(acceleration)

I think you don't understand what acceleration is. Acceleration is the rate of change in velocity. To have acceleration, you must obey Newton's law of equal and opposite reactions. This law is obeyed while the bullet travels down the barrel of the gun and a bullet is being pushed by the string of the bow. One force is pushing on the gun/bow and the other on the bullet/arrow, equal and opposite forces. Because the mass of the bullet/arrow is so much less than the gun/bow, more force is transfered to the velocity in the equation.

shooting off with a push of 100 m/s^2 and friction is taking it down 10 m/s^2 thus
(1s = 90 m/s^2), (2s = 80m/s^2), (3s = 70m/s^2), etc.

Until 10 seconds later where acceleration = 0, now is going at constant speed = peak theoretical damage.

By definition of acceleration, there is time involved, that means going from 100 -> zero is not possible without the passing of time.

I never implied it was instaneous. The acceleration occurs only while the bullet is traveling through the barrel (expanding gas pressure) and the bow string is pushing the arrow. This takes time (very little), but all the horizontal acceleration occurs in this period. Once it leaves the barrel/bow string there is no outside force acting on it that could cause further acceleration (you would need equal and opposite force for more acceleration to occur, what is being pushed as a reaction of the bullet accelerating later?). You mention gravity, but that has no effect on horizontal acceleration as I explained in my previous post. Only air resistance slows the horizontal velocity, and that is a very minor factor and insignifigant at the ranges encountered in game. If we were discussing rockets, you physics would be correct in that they continue to accelerate after launch, but bullets and arrows travel solely on inertia after launch and expereince no further acceleration.

Here is an excerpt from that report I linked in my earlier post which you didn't read:

When one object exerts a force on a second object for a certain amount of time, the second object exerts an equal but oppositely directed force on the first object for exactly the same amount of time. The momentum lost by the first object is exactly equal to the momentum gained by the second object. Momentum is transferred from the first object to the second object. In this case, if a gun exerts a force on a bullet when firing it forward then the bullet will exert an equal force in the opposite direction on the gun causing it to move backwards or recoil. Although the action and reaction forces are equal in size the effect on the gun and the bullet are not the same since the mass of the gun is far greater than the mass of the bullet. The acceleration of the bullet while moving along the gun barrel would be much greater than the acceleration of the gun(acceleration = force mass).

Here is a very good physics discussion of bullet momentum and acceleration that should clear things up.

[Anaki]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

wouldn't it be instead of force. be kinetic energy?

[Rones]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

Kinetic energy is the energy of motion. All moving objects have it. However, kinetic energy is not a factor when you are discussing momentum and forces pushing on each other (gun and bullet pushing on each other). In those cases you use force.

KE= 1/2 * mass * V^2

[kuu]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

I'm stopping here...

but how the heck do you get f = mass * velocity???....that's like...
... firstly It's in newtons, and newtons is X[weight][distance][time]^2 I.E. 1kgm/s^2 = 1N going east. This is like very google-able.

Velocity is speed with direction, thus magnitude. 1m/s east. 1kgm/s is not a N. You're not getting Newtons here. You're physics teacher would pop a vein if you tried that.

The article talks about Newton's 3rd law, all it basically means is that if you weren't there to absorb the recoil, it would fly backwards.

And Air friction or air drag is not insignificant. One of the varibles in air drag is veleocity. That means the faster it goes, the more friction there is (of course minimizing friction helps) This is also the reason why nothing keeps going at 100m/s^2 without sustained propellants equal to or above air drag.

Edit: It looks like you're mixing up Force with magnitude.

[DakAttack]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

I hate math.

[Pounce]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

Does it really matter?

Physics is probably the last reason why S-E implemented these changes.

Do realistic physics matter in a game where a little bunny rabbit can survive dozens of hits from a gigantic 6-foot-long sword, and then subsequently send the supposedly mighty platemail-clad swordsman fleeing in terror like a little schoolgirl?

[DakAttack]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

I thought that was going to stay between us -_-

[kuu]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

Does it really matter?

Nope, reason I stated I'm stopping.

Of course with the rise of PS3(one of their advertisments if physics), and more powerful PCs, that will impliment physics simulations....it might matter in the future of gaming.

(I can imagine graphics where a ranger shoots his arrow and hits dirt 2 paces short of the monster lol)

Though there will of course be variables to change, to give you super human like powers.

[Rones]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

but how the heck do you get f = mass * velocity???....that's like...

I corrected that in my response. Your formulea is correct, but irrelevent to the situation. As the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun, all the expanding gas behind it escapes to the sides causing all acceleration to rapidly go to 0, leaving the bullet to travel on with its own inertia/momentum.

And Air friction or air drag is not insignificant.

Yes, it is. The whole point of this discussion was that maximum velocity is reached at the end of the gun barrel/bow string. What kind of air resistance/friction it gets beyond there is only go to slow it down. I say its a minor effect, you say its major. Either way it is irrelevent to where you reach maximum velocity.

There can be no acceleration without equal and opposite reactions. Once the bullet/arrow leaves the gun/bow, there is no longer an opposite force and thus no further acceleration can occur. This leaves maximum velocity being reached at the shortest range possible (and not 5-10 meters out like you origonally argued).

[RuneGrey]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

I am personally expecting that this will just be a TP balance issue - that SE will make it so you need to be standing 4 or 5 paces off for best damage with a RNG, meaning that they have to make a choice between A) Getting up close and doing sub-par damage from ranged attacks, but being able to benefit from melee TP gain or B) Standing off to do maximum damage, but only getting the TP from ranged attacks, thus not being able to squeeze off Sidewinder as often.

Given that with a Barrage, a RNG can get back up to close to 100% TP within a few moments, I think that this probably was coming for a while. RNG and SAM will still be on the top for overall TP gain - it just means that RNG will no longer domiante that catagory.

[Icemage]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

Regarding the physics question that brought up, on level terrain, there is no damage difference for a ranged weapon at short range rather than at long range, other than drag.

However, it IS possible to have a projectile undergo continuous acceleration in flight: gravity. This is why medieval archers defending castles were always stationed at the top of the castle. Not only did it make them harder to hurt by opposing archers, but the extra acceleration granted by gravity made their arrows do far more damage on top of increasing their maximum range. This was one of the primary reasons that higher elevations were important in lower-tech combat strategy (that, plus making your enemy climb uphill and wear himself out, of course).

There's a common phrase "taking the moral high ground" which derives from this, as a matter of fact.

I'm not suggesting that elevation could or should be a factor in FFXI ranged combat, but saying that any projectile launched from a ranged weapon has already attained its maximum velocity is erroneous.

EDIT: Additional physics notes. Momentum is mass * velocity (p = m * v). Force, as discussed previously, has no direct bearing on this discussion. The term you are looking for is PRESSURE, which is the amount of force applied over a specific area (pressure = force / acceleration). In the case of most low-tech projectile weapons that rely on mass delivery, the tip of the ammunition (arrows, bolts, and some bullets) are pointed, to apply the maximum amount of energy to the smallest possible area, which gives them a higher chance of penetrating armor.


Icemage

[Macht]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

You know I've been thinking of what the purpose of the RNG change was and why, many of the things posted here explains much of the reason for distance and level difference. The thing not explained is the logic of Bows, Xbows, ang Guns chaning in effectiveness, then a complaint I was having of resent updates and how RNGs damage capabilities were already being taken away. At around Lv. 71 any job that could use that lv. 71 Conquest Bow (Forgot it's name now ) and had RNG subbed could just about match a RNG in damage and Bows were already capable of surpasing Guns in damage.

That's when the idea for this change hit me on the three, if you look at Bows they have a much larger number of jobs that can use it, xbows second largest, then guns nearly exclusive to NIN/THF/RNG. This helped to come to an idea of how range accruacy and the damage delt will end up varrying too.

The most likely I could see is that the Bows damage will be a lot more in-line to the wielders STR, so the higher the STR the easier it will be to achieve max damage at further distances (This means an Elvaan will be capable of hitting for max damage, while standing maybe half way, but like a Mithra will have to stand closer). The Bows accuracy would then also rely on STR/DEX (similar to real life since the further you could draw the bow the greater damage and distance it could reach and equally it is a steady hand that determined the accuracy). The downfall to Bow would be to truely hit it's best the person would have to be far enough that the arrow leaves the bow at the peak of it's acceleration which should be the moment just after the arrow leaves the bow string.

With the XBows damage will likely be determined more by the xbow itself STR/DEX instead will be added to better determine accuracy and accuracy being an added effect against damage with the distance.

Then finally you'd have the Gun it's damage also depending on the gun and bullet type. So I would assume the cannon shells and the Culverin would be nearly uneffected since a Tank or say a M82A1A still going to leave a gapping hole with quite a long distance range.

So the RNGs strength I could probably see starting to push them to need Guns for their damage potential. This would also change effect of WAR/RNG or SAM/RNG and their Sidewinders not matching or beating a RNGs as I have seen actually happen a couple days ago provided that the RNG is going more strickly to guns.

EDIT:

Also Icemage is right an object fired in a downward direction is going to gain acceleration friction from air is nearly uneffecting once the object reaches a certain acceleration. With it being fired downward it reaches that acceleration for air to not be an issue.

Should be common sense, it's why you can get in a lot of trouble from tossing a penny off a skyscrapper. That penny will pick enough acceleration that if you hit someone you might as well of just shot them with a gun, it would of been less messy.

[Rones]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

I'm not suggesting that elevation could or should be a factor in FFXI ranged combat, but saying that any projectile launched from a ranged weapon has already attained its maximum velocity is erroneous.

That is why I commonly refered to it as the maximum horizontal velocity and did mention gravity affecting its downward velocity. However, only air resistance will affect the horizontal velocity after it leaves the gun/bow which will be miner. Gravity will typically pull a horizontally fired bullet/arrow into the ground before air resistance plays much of a role.

p = m * v Thank you Ice, that is the forumlea I was trying to think of earlier when kuu brought up F = m * a.

[fuz]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

Should be common sense, it's why you can get in a lot of trouble from tossing a penny off a skyscrapper. That penny will pick enough acceleration that if you hit someone you might as well of just shot them with a gun, it would of been less messy.

Lol, sorry, but a penny will hit terminal velocity and stop accelerating at a certain point due to air friction. I mean gee, how do parachutes work if you keep accelerating infintely? :p A penny won't kill anyone who isn't one foot in the grave already--e.g. old people. It might hurt a lot, but I can assure you it won't kill.

[Macht]

Re: OMFG! SE is nerfing NIN and RNG!!!

Lol, sorry, but a penny will hit terminal velocity and stop accelerating at a certain point due to air friction. I mean gee, how do parachutes work if you keep accelerating infintely? :p A penny won't kill anyone who isn't one foot in the grave already--e.g. old people. It might hurt a lot, but I can assure you it won't kill.

Ehh, so i exagurated a little :p