dear people who buy gil with real money

[solmeir]

Merged with the other thread as people are still discussing this one.

thx StarvingArtist

One thing that I think this thread has been good for, is providing some insight into farming/gil raising/earning.

I would have to agree that there is far too much time spent trying to earn money in this game.
Currently as a lvl 41 mnk, Im wearing approximately 1.2 million gil worth of equipment.
With the exception of maybe the brown belt, this gear really is required to operate effectively as my chosen class- or risk no parties.

So lvl 40 is perhaps 30% ? of the way through the game in terms of time/lvls- is this realistic spending.

A suggestion that I have sent through to SE is that there should be more quests for good equipment (lvl based) that are EX/Rare.

THis would help eliminate any suggestion of people controlling the AH.
Also more gil earning npc quests.

Thoughts?

[ibroyles]

Dude, you have to STOP comparing this to other FF's or any OTHER RPG. There is NO "OMFGZZZ, I BOUGHT SOMETHING FOR 100k AND IT SUCKZ< LET ME JUST PULL OUT THE MEMORY CARD". You can't do that here. You buy something for that amount of money, and you find out it sucks, you're shit out of luck. Period.

Ummm, it sounds like you're the one who doesn't have a good grasp of the game. If you buy something and you find out it sucks, you can :gasp: maybe sell it right back on the AH? I do this with old equips anyways...why actually spend real money on it? That is just ridiculous, like the people that say "yep, I'm actually conserving my time by buying this gil." What a joke. What you're really doing is just wasting RL time earned money to put it all into a game to cheat.

Originally posted by littlesushi

I see one guy talking about how he works 8 hours a day, and still has all the time in the wolrd to farm for 395839058 gil a day, that's great for you, but there's still people that have LESS time then that. I have at best, 3 hrs to play a day. Yea, I might have one or two days off a week to play as much as I want, but remember, FFXI =/= Real life, I have freinds that I like to hang out with, i'm not wasting all my time playing this game.

Okay, so three hours to play a day. That's plenty of time. Why take the money you earn in a day's work and throw it into the game. If anything, you get more out of your money by farming, since you ARE the one that said "FFXI =/= Real life." Why waste RL extra money to enhance your gameplay experience? Why not just buy a different game for $50 that you can play with a gameshark and acheive that same experience, less money?

Originally posted by littlesushi

And this goes out to the "If you're not gonna play the game right, don't play it at all" group. Dude, you pay for my cable connection, and my 12.95 a month, and the 180$ I dropped on it to get my PS2 to play it, and i'll play it however you want. Who the f*ck are you to tell me how to NOT play I game I bought? Please.

Yeah, except you're cheating. People do have a right to tell you NOT TO CHEAT. And just don't complain when you get caught cheating, and your account gets deleted. Good luck getting all that hard earned money back. Or when (God forbid) FFXI ever gets old and dies out, all your money on gils will be wasted. Yes, you could say that all the 12.95 a month each player spent would be wasted as well, but at least we played the game by the rules, instead of being a fucking little cheatrag through the whole game.

Originally posted by littlesushi

And best, "OMFGZZZ, YOU BROKE TO TOS" I'm sure EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU BOUGHT FRAPS AND ADOBE PREMIER. And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU IS RUNNING A LEGAL VERSION OF WINDOWS XP? Am I right? HELL NO! So please, you guys are the WORST people to be takling about breaking the TOS.

Nope, I'm on PS2, and I can say I have never broken the TOS.

[Ashtyr]

The elitism here is sickening.

[csBahamut]

Think about these situations and how you would feel...

1) Say, you join some sport competition, like golf, where you have to pay an entrance fee every year. Now, every year, the winner of this competition is allow in some prestigous country club or get's some big prize, or a spot in a professional game. Now, after the first few games, you're up there in the lead. Then, one of the other players near last place thinks he has no chance because he never has time to practice. So he decides to hire some guy to move his ball closer to the hole after every shot so that he can win the competition. Do you think this other guy has a justifiable reason to cheat you out of your win? What about if this guy wins? Hoiw would you feel?

2) Your kid is part of a local sports team, like say baseball. Every year, the winners get a trophy and an ice cream and pizza party at a nearby theme park payed for by the city. Your kid REALLY wants to go. Now, you, being the head coach, have the team practice 3 times a week. The kids get real good and win almost all of their games and are in the lead to win the prize. Then, a coach for another team feels bad that his kid won't win. He can't hold more than 1 practice a week due to his work schedule. So instead, he decides to pay the umpire to make calls for his team, even if it was obvious that they are wrong(i.e. calling the your team's kid out as soon as he hits the ball). He also pays people to run onto the field and take the ball from your team during play, and the umpire does nothing about because he's paid not to. Now, how would you feel? What about if this other team wins the competion, and yours comes in second? How would you feel?

If you still think it's ok to cheat in these situations, then (pardon my language but...) you're a selfish bastard. You cheat for yourself, and yourself alone. Nothing wrong with being selfish, but being SO selfish that you don't care how it affects others, you deserve to be takin and sold into slavery. *note* This last paragraph is the expressed opinion of me. If you're offended, you should be.

[Onte]

You cheat for yourself, and yourself alone.

Exactly, so give it a rest and recognize your lecturing isn't changing lives. I think you take this *game* way too seriously, but who am I to judge anyone based upon their opinions concerning a game?

[LawDawg]

your first example may apply to people who buy gil and are lazy... but i don't think anyone is justifying that. Your second example trys to show that buying gil because you dont have enough time is wrong. Your example, however, doesn't work in this situation. Paying the ump to make calls for your team is similar to paying the GM to give you super powers over other people... not happening. Instead a better example would be the coach paying SOMEONE (say another coach) to coach his team FOR HIM (since he doesn't have enough time) and then not giving any credit to the coach that did the coaching...

[csBahamut]

your first example may apply to people who buy gil and are lazy... but i don't think anyone is justifying that. Your second example trys to show that buying gil because you dont have enough time is wrong. Your example, however, doesn't work in this situation. Paying the ump to make calls for your team is similar to paying the GM to give you super powers over other people... not happening. Instead a better example would be the coach paying SOMEONE (say another coach) to coach his team FOR HIM (since he doesn't have enough time) and then not giving any credit to the coach that did the coaching...

You're ignoring the point. The method of cheating in my eample makes no difference, I was only trying to provide a close enough example to something similar in FFXI. It's the determination of whether or not it's justifiable to cheat. If you have kids, I'm pretty sure you'd see my point. If I have to explain every detail and think for you, then why even bother trying to talk to you? You won't listen, nor will you be able to understand.

Exactly, so give it a rest and recognize your lecturing isn't changing lives. I think you take this *game* way too seriously, but who am I to judge anyone based upon their opinions concerning a game?

That's good that you understand that, but do you understand why others don't like people cheating? Would you like it for someone to cheat in a way that affects you? Yes, it is just a game, but it's also a company's product which is governed by laws. Baseball is *just* a game, yet there's laws that limit gambling on sporting events. Try telling a baseball, basketball, or football player that, "Hey, it's just a game. What does it matter if I cheat? I can do what I want." I'm sure they'd be REAL happy with you. Just look at what happened to Pete Rose, or the Chicago Black Sox(who threw the world series for money).

You can try to cheat all you want, BUT there is NO justification for it what-so-ever. Just remember, "What goes around, comes around." Do bad things, and it will catch up to you sooner or later.

[Legionnaire]

Your analogies have no merit. For one, they are comparing things which in no way relate to the real circumstances we are talking about. In my eyes, there is a difference between "cheating" and "using your resources". Here's a better analogy for you:

A professional sports team has never been able to compete successfully against other, better teams for years. In order to compensate for their weakness, the team decides to pay a couple young up-and-comers to join their team. Because this team has access to more money than other teams, they can surely outbid any competition for the promising players. With the added extra talent the sports team is now able to compete against the other major teams in their league. Though they cannot yet win the sports league's championship, they now have the capabilty to do something about it.

In this situation, from my perspective, the team BOUGHT the new players. Is this not how every major sports league from the NBA, NFL, and so on handle their draft? Would you classify every team in each sport as "cheaters"? I think not. They are only using their resources to make their team as good as they can possibly be, that way they stand a chance against other teams who may naturally have good players. And I know it says that gil-buying is "against the rules", but frankly if it is not enforced, it cannot be considered a rule. I have yet to hear of someone being banned for buying gil or selling gil. Maybe someone has before, but I have not heard heard of it. I personally do not buy gil, but I hate seeing people degrade others because they believe themselves to be better than everyone else.

[csBahamut]

A professional sports team has never been able to compete successfully against other, better teams for years. In order to compensate for their weakness, the team decides to pay a couple young up-and-comers to join their team. Because this team has access to more money than other teams, they can surely outbid any competition for the promising players. With the added extra talent the sports team is now able to compete against the other major teams in their league. Though they cannot yet win the sports league's championship, they now have the capabilty to do something about it.

That's allowed by the rules set forth by MLB whereas gil buying is not allowed by the ToS. SE just doesn't have the ability to enforce it yet. The internet hasn't been around long enough for a lot of legal issues to set precedence.

My analogies are quite valid. Whether or not my examples exactly reflect similar situations in game is irrelevant. I'm just trying to get the point accross that there is no justification for cheating. If you want to talk about whether or not gil buying is cheating, well, that's a different matter. Read this before you decide to consider whether or not gil buying is legal/cheating. Also read your ToS.

http://www.themis-group.com/whitepapers.phtml

The Pitfalls of Virtual Property (April 2004) - 140k PDF file, 23 pages (Provided by StarvingArtist)

And you can't say his work is irrelevant or not valid, otherwise, why would companies pay him to write these things?

[Onte]

That's good that you understand that, but do you understand why others don't like people cheating?

I think you missed my point entirely. You obviously don't understand why I made that statement or that it actually applies to you.

Why are you so concerned about what your neighbors are doing, anyway? Seriously. Do you holler at your RL neighbors for not scooping up their dog doo or neglecting to mow their lawn?

"OMGZ YOU LEFT YOUR SUNDAY PAPER IN THE BOX FOR 3 DAYS!!! I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOUR UNWILLINGNESS TO CONFORM TO WHAT I THINK IS JUST AND GOOD!!!"

[Faust]

Originally posted by Onte
Why are you so concerned about what your neighbors are doing, anyway? Seriously. Do you holler at your RL neighbors for not scooping up their dog doo or neglecting to mow their lawn?

Actually, if you were a home owner, you'd be well within your right to complain if your neighbors were doing just that. It lowers the value of your own home, which unless you care not what your home would end up selling for, is a VERY big issue.

[Faust]

Originally posted by Legionnaire
A professional sports team has never been able to compete successfully against other, better teams for years. In order to compensate for their weakness, the team decides to pay a couple young up-and-comers to join their team. Because this team has access to more money than other teams, they can surely outbid any competition for the promising players. With the added extra talent the sports team is now able to compete against the other major teams in their league. Though they cannot yet win the sports league's championship, they now have the capabilty to do something about it.

In this situation, from my perspective, the team BOUGHT the new players. Is this not how every major sports league from the NBA, NFL, and so on handle their draft? Would you classify every team in each sport as "cheaters"? I think not. They are only using their resources to make their team as good as they can possibly be, that way they stand a chance against other teams who may naturally have good players. And I know it says that gil-buying is "against the rules", but frankly if it is not enforced, it cannot be considered a rule. I have yet to hear of someone being banned for buying gil or selling gil. Maybe someone has before, but I have not heard heard of it. I personally do not buy gil, but I hate seeing people degrade others because they believe themselves to be better than everyone else.

First of all. If outbidding other teams for players is something that's a part of the game (NBA, NFL, whatever has rules covering those instances I'm sure) and if it's within the RULES, then yes, it's not cheating. It's allowed IN THE RULES. If it was NOT allowed in the rules, then it WOULD be cheating.

As far as whether or not a rule is enforced. If it's a rule, it's a rule. Breaking the rule simply because it hasn't been effectively enforced does not make it anything less than cheating. Still cheating. Sooner or later, hopefully, they'll enforce it better.

I'm sure i've mentioned it before, but I never said I was better than anyone (not saying you targeted me on that comment). Simply that I have no respect for the playing ability of people that cheat. They could solo Kirin for all I care, the fact is, if they purchased gil or botted, still cheated to get there.

[Onte]

^^ That went over your head, too, eh? It's ok.

[csBahamut]

I think you missed my point entirely. You obviously don't understand why I made that statement or that it actually applies to you.

Why are you so concerned about what your neighbors are doing, anyway? Seriously. Do you holler at your RL neighbors for not scooping up their dog doo or neglecting to mow their lawn?

"OMGZ YOU LEFT YOUR SUNDAY PAPER IN THE BOX FOR 3 DAYS!!! I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOUR UNWILLINGNESS TO CONFORM TO WHAT I THINK IS JUST AND GOOD!!!"

Hrm....do any of these things affect anybody in a bad way? I bet you would care if your neighbor was running a crack house or a child porn shop. Would you care if a seriel murderer was living next door to you? Things like not mowing the lawn can bother some people. Those types of things tend to lower the resale value of one's house. Those that fail to take care of such silly things tend to become outcaste by the neighborhood. You have to care about what others think. If you don't you only bring more trouble upon yourself. Maybe you just don't realize what really goes on in your own subconscious. You do care about what others think yourself. Why would you be expressing your own opinion if you didn't? Why would you play a multiplayer game if you didn't care about others at all?

By simply partaking in this discusion, does that make me tyrant that wishes to force my way of thinking apon others? No. If I wanted to force people into doing things, I'd be a bully physically tourturing people into doing what I want, like communist dictators. I'm merely trying to reason with other players of a game that I don't want to see get ruined because of selfish human nature. I don't force you to come here and read my posts, you do that voluntarily, as does everyone else. You can stubornly choose to ignore logic, reason, and opinion, but it's not going to change anything. All that does is turn a blind eye to a problem. A lot of Americans don't like dealing with problems until it is too late. That's why less than 50% of American votes in elections now. Everybody is like "I don't care as long as I can do what I want." Maybe American needs to feel what it's like to be without it's rights and privalrges to gain an apreciation and understanding of what they really have.

[Onte]

Hrm....do any of these things affect anybody in a bad way?

Prove to us that gil-selling is poorly effecting anyone.

Maybe you just don't realize what really goes on in your own subconscious. You do care about what others think yourself. Why would you be expressing your own opinion if you didn't?

Please, Frooood-dude. Seriously. I'm almost 30. I don't need a lecture on my own psychology from someone who appears to be walking on the sunny side of 20. And what in the hell does my subconscious have anything to do with buying and selling gil? I'm sure of my own opinions: I could care less if you or Skippy McGee buys gil because you've yet to prove to me how it's harming a game I enjoy playing. You've offered nothing but speculation, which is all anyone can offer, and your own breed of uplifting, motivational lectures.

As for your "Americans need to learn" line, I hope you're from this soil so I don't have to spank you, yet again, for assuming things and making an "ass" out of "u" and "me".