dear people who buy gil with real money

[lun4tic]

You pay to play a game, which is essentially paying for what's in the game. So is buying the fake money.

I see no difference between the two. Buying fake characters, and buying fake money.

Where it comes from is another story, one which I don't have any intrest in. You do what you have to do.

Quit yer bitchin' poor people.

[Zaptruder]

I could see the reasoning against anti-gil buying...

IF

this game didn't have the propensity for taking AWAY from your life, in order to achieve significantly in the game.

That said, it's a player created economy; hundreds of thousands of players put in millions of hours a month to create that economy; the interaction with the real world is in the timespent; if you choose to spend it in game, then you've lost that time in the real world. For some people, it would be more worthwhile to pay for the gil, some 300 bucks for 1 million gil, then it is to spend X hours farming it (about 50 hours for alot of people).

Moreover... a person if they play to LV75 and buy their gil, will have spent MORE than enough time playing the game, even without having spent any time farming.

note there's also a pretty big difference between 10 million gil for 100 bucks and 1 million gil for 300 bucks. The latter makes it such that only the rich and busy are really able to afford it, while the former makes the problem endemic.

=====================

as for people thinking that paying real money for 'virtual' money is a retarded idea; well, again, the real world factor is time - you require time for real money and time for virtual money. To some people, wasting time farming like that, costs them more money then it would just buying gil!

Moreover, because these backdoor economies exist, your character tho you might have no intention of selling or your gil; they possess a real world value.

Arguing that gil isn't worth paying for because it's 'virtual' is perhaps as specious as arguing that MP3s aren't worth paying for, because it doesn't cost anyone anything to reproduce.

[LawDawg]

Fyreus, that was the worst example I have ever heard in my life...

[Ziguld]

Time is money.
We all know that saying. It applies to everything. Instead of repeating the rest of what I was going to say, just look at Zaptruder's comment.

[Zaptruder]

I read some of that paper, but I'm compelled to make a response to it before finishing. Maybe that's unwise.

But the paper although dealing with legalities, 'philosophy' and perhaps even gameplay, fails to consider the reality of the situation.

The argument, that people are selling their time is incorrect; rather it should be that people are exchanging the effects of time spent in the realworld with time spent in the virtual world; which for many people is a favourable trade. With this idea, it doesn't matter how illegal the trade is, it will occur; unless there's a rigid crackdown on these people; that will ultimately not be worth the effort.

Moreover, the gamedesign... the balance; often skews the experience such that the game has to take CONSIDERABLY away from the players time in order to achieve meaningfully within a reasonable (in this case, reasonable been the players long term patience not wearing out) time frame. If the game design had been less skewed towards creating so many time sinks, then yes, the meaning of the achievements would have been somewhat diminished; but at the sametime would also render virtual commodity trading less viable. See Diablo 2 for example. relative to a game like FFXI, the top tier characters take far far less time to achieve. More over, the items and characters been sold just aren't worth much - as a percentage of player base vs the amount of people selling virtual stuff in the game, it's far less prolific then for FFXI.

[JP_Ikari]

Originally posted by Demon_of_Elru
[B]Lmao!! This is exactly the type of person my post was aimed at! They all totally agree that its wrong to buy gil, but the funny thing is, they dont actually think about the possible reasons why some people WOULD buy gil.

These people will call other people names and accuse them of being lazy and stupid idiots, and THEN they talk about "pushing morals onto other people". Lmao!

Its called ignorance, and that statement quoted above is a classic example.

Haha Ignorance about what you just said?? Hmm lets see,

The whole reason of my last post was to point out to the people who where calling names that their isn't always one side to the story and if you ever really knew why "some" people bought gil, then I think the name calling is very arrogant of you.

the issue for me is not being arrogant, rather than what's the point of buying something you yourself can work for. That's why I said it's stupid. That's why I said it's dumb, but again, I guess I'm only viewing it as "one-sided" like how you make me and the rest out as.

You have 2 hours, if you read here you can make money out of gardening for 10mins. If you tell me you don't have time then wtf are you doing with that 2hours?? Sitting there LFP?? Obviously there's time for you to farm, why don't you? That's the issue here. So you tell me what's the point of buying gil again, and not be called lazy, stupid or dumb?? Cause you don't have time to play the game?? obviously you do with your 2 hours. Wait wait you'll say "well I wanan level for 2 hours" well guess what buddy, you can't go further with just your level 30 crap at level 40, you know what you're gonna have to farm. "but why would I farm, it takes too long and I only have 2 hours" that's being lazy and guess what, well dude sorry you have too, that's how it is, you can't be efficient without having to update your armor.

Your alternative?? Oh buy the gil so I can buy the armor, because I don't wanna waste my "precious" 2 hours cause it's only for leveling. Please dude, stop. That right there just made it stupid. Oh shit stupid, I'm name calling, please stop me, I'm arrogant like what he said. I'm not, you say you don't have that 2 hours to farm cause you want to level, but you can't level cause you don't have updated armor, so your only alternative is to buy gil with RL money. Stupid. So again, why do people buy gil with RL money?? I'm only viewing this as 1 sided just like eveyrone else right? You tell me. What other reasons are there for you to buy Gil with RL money? And please no personal BS cause we all have personal problems on our own, and we're also busy with our everyday lives and don't only play this game, like how make some of us out as. Again, tell me why would "some" buy gil with RL money?

Ikari

P.S. now I'm done with the thread.

[Braanu]

If you have to buy your virtual money to play the game then you do not have enough time to play the game like it should be played. You pro-gilbuyers admit to that.

If you do not have enough time to play the game, then the game is not for you. Period. End of story. End of excuses and reasoning for you buying gil. The game is not for you. Move on to a game that is for you. Dont ruin the game for thousands of others who have the time needed to play the game and play it as it was intended to be played, and according to the rules/EULA.

When you buy gil, the personal value of that gil is less to you than the personal value of the same amount of gil to the person who actually made it correctly in-game.

Because you value that gil less and got it so easily and quickly, AND MAINLY because you know if you dont have enough of it you can obtain more instantly and quickly and easily.

Furthermore, because you know you can get as much of it as you need...as fast as you need....then you're going to bid higher on an item over 100k than someone who's spent hours and days farming will bid for the same said item.

What does this do? Anyone with half a lick of sense knows. It will drive the price of that item up, and make it unobtainable to all but those very rich crafters or gil buyers.

Flip side. What does this do to farming locations? Well...someone has to be farming this gil somehow, somewhere. Next time you go to farm your gil honestly (or you always farm honestly)....say, Beaudeax or Upper Delkfutts Tower, or Castle Ostroza....these places will be camped out by the people who sell gil. When you are leveling Bard or Beastmaster and want Monster Signa you probably will have to buy it from a gil seller because you cant camp it for the 100 people there camping it to sell gil online. These places are ALREADY camped out by these people. These people are AFRAID of their real-life income. These people GRIEF real players all the time who "steal their camps" and cause them to make less gil per day. They employ very very mean methods to run you out of these areas.

Ya....buying gil has NO EFFECT on anyone. Ya right. I've given you many examples of how it very much DOES effect quite a few people.

Lastly....a lot of people seem to think this gil is made in a fashion that is going along with the game, ie farming or NM camping....and that makes it right to buy the gil because it wasnt "gil duped...introducing currency into a market that wouldnt already have it". However, by buying gil online you are in FACT buying gil that wouldnt have been made otherwise. The whole purpose of these companies is to sell virtual money for real world money. How do you think they get this virtual money? They either employ people to play to earn it and in turn sell it for them, or they buy it off people who have farmed it honestly. Now....IF there were NO gil selling available/allowed/possible.....do you think for ONE MINUTE that gil would have existed? Why would joe-schmo farm for 30 days straight in Upper Delkfutt's Tower if he already has 10,000,000 gil on him and cant make real-world profit out of it? He wouldnt be there, and the gil wouldnt exist. The real world money you are paying for the virtual money creates a market for that virtual money, and in essence CREATES that virtual money. Just as bad as gil duping...and has the same effect.

Buying gil is bad bad bad for many many many reasons. Dont justify it. Just makes you look like a moron.

[lun4tic]

Originally posted by Braanu
Ohnoes!!!!11 Evrbody is cemping everything to sel gil and nobody can get ne thing for thmselves legitemitally! IT HURTS US ALL!!!!!!!!111

Buying gil farmed normally for enjoyment is no different then buying a game to play for enjoyment. Why shouldn't people who don't have a lot of time play this game? There's nothing wrong with earning money to spend it on earned gil to keep up with in-game friends.

You can't see the other side of the coin, so you don't understand it. That makes you an idiot.

[csBahamut]

Reasonable time frame to accomplish goals mean different things depending on who you ask. There are people who played from Day 1 of NA release and quit within the first week, and there are those that got to 75 in half a year. There are those that played from Day 1 of Jpn PS2 release who are still going on, but haven't done everything in the game. Some will say it's too hard to get anything done or make money, and others will say the opposite - that it's easy compared to other games. Who is in the right then? Meaningful achievement requires certain qualifications to be filled and the time it takes for people vary. In college, someone can spend 4 years and still not earn enough credits to obtain a degree and might need another 6-12 months more. What if someone used outside resources to buy credits and circumvent the process of going to classes? If it were so easy to just buy your achievements, then the significance of obtaining it is diminished. If the system was designed to make it easier for everyone, then what would be the point of progression if anyone can get AF or a Bachelor's Degree with minimal effort and time?

This is one of my points right here. FFXI is designed to be a game that requires hours and hours on end of play time to accomplish anything. That's why I play this game. I can't sit down and finish the game in a week like I do with CRPGs. Now, if some other players come in and decide to CHANGE the way the game was designed, well, I'm going to fight it. If someone wants a quick game, go find one. Don't ruin something for your own selfish pleasure. So you have a hard time getting good gear, go play SWG. My friend says it's easy to get money. Want lots of levels real fast? Go play EQ(I think it's fast leveling. Never played it.). There's all kinds of games out there. None of them will be EXACTLY what each player wants. But you know what? There never will be unless you design the game yourself.

How about this: Take your favorite console game(or PC game) that is single player. Now, cheat from start to finish. Give yourself all the weapons/items/money/etc. in the game, and see how quickly you get bored. Not only are you shorting others of fun, but you're also shorting yourself.

If you want to talk about having enough time...I work, eat, sleep, and play FFXI. My social life pretty much IS FFXI. I gave up doing other things to have enough time to play FFXI. I don't have time to play a lot of other games I would like to play. But you know what, that's just tough. I have to live with it.

Again, just because it's not a big problem now doesn't mean it doesn't need delt with. It's best to prevent a problem, or stop it early, than to let it get real bad. Would you want the doctor to tell you, "Eh...It's not a serious cancer yet, so we'll wait on your treatment." Six months later, "Sorry son, it's too late to do anything now. We should have taken care of this when we first found it. You should be dead in 6 months."

Buying gil farmed normally for enjoyment is no different then buying a game to play for enjoyment. Why shouldn't people who don't have a lot of time play this game? There's nothing wrong with earning money to spend it on earned gil to keep up with in-game friends.

Ok, gil buying is illegal. But it can be gotten away with. Does that mean we should do it? No. Just like murder of stealing in real life. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.

[Edit]

Excellent site StarvingArtist. They explain everything very nicely.

[csBahamut]

If SE would decide to implement a gil buying system, where players would pay SE for gil, I'd have no prolem with it. Especially if it was only on specific server(s). At least then, the game is designed that way, and it's allowed legally. It'd ruin the game for me, but it's not my game. It's SE's. I pay $13/month to gain access to data on the servers. I don't own anything, so I have no right to buy what SE doesn't sell. That's probably why MMORPG don't sell stuff. It opens a whole can of worms. Server crashes. players lose items/gil/whatever that they paid money for. SE now owes them new items, or the players money back, because the player OWNS the data(virtual item/gil). And then what when the game is shutting down? Real life materials have value(which depreciates over time). They can be sold back. Virtual items can't if the servers are going down. The company would then have to pay the player back money for the depreciated value, or the players would lose invested money.

There are many problems with buying virtual items. I can see why people would want to. Only those of weak Will will give in to their urges to break the rules. It's why crime still exists.

[edit]

Buying gil farmed normally for enjoyment is no different then buying a game to play for enjoyment. Why shouldn't people who don't have a lot of time play this game? There's nothing wrong with earning money to spend it on earned gil to keep up with in-game friends.

It's not right. They're breeching the EULA and breaking the law. If they don't have time, there are HUNDREDS of other games out there to spend all their money on. They can play the game, but they have to abide by the same rules as anybody else. If they can buy items online, then I should be compensated for spending MORE time by getting items free.

Selling their time? Phffft! They're just using a loop hole to do what they're not supposed to. Think I could get away with selling my time to shop for those bags of candy bars(the ones with "not for resale" written on them)? Do you think I should do it be cause I could possibly get away with it?

[Yunna]

Not everyone has time to become a level 75 l33t haxor with super duper ways of making gil. Some people have kids to feed, families to care for, bussiness to run, girlfriends to pamper, full time job/school to attend. But if these people would still like to enjoy the game the way they want to does that make them retarded? Leave them alone. It's none of your business. You're one who's retarded for mocking them.

What if a certain gil buyer tells you:"In real life, I can make 100x more then you ever will spending the same amount of time farming in FFXI". if you think about it, doesn't that make you a retard?

Be nice. Don't be immature. This thread should be locked/closed long ago.

Why do you think they buy gil? Because they're struggling that's why. They don't have the time to invest like you guys do. Please be a little more understanding. So if you're so cool, why don't you write up a faq on teaching these poor gil buyers how to make massive gil just like yourself so they can stop becoming retards? Oh wait, if everyone knows your primary source of income that'd ruin the economy too no? lol.

[Kafeen]

Originally posted by Yunna
Some people have kids to feed, families to care for, bussiness to run, girlfriends to pamper,

And the way to do that is to spend their money on Gil? Sounds retarded to me.

[Poncho]

Supply and Demand

If I have something ingame and one person wants to buy it for real money, it has a value. If I have an item and more than one person wanted to buy it, it would be worth more, simply because more than one How much more? It depends on two things:


1. The amount of money I want for said item-
2. The amount someone is willing to pay for said item-

Without these two factors in place, gil would be worthless in the real world. However, there is a thriving market for it because someone somewhere is willing to pay real money and forsake all the hassles of farming or camping NMs or crafting. If they have the money to buy gil, why shouldn't they be able to? Because they didn't earn all the money themselves? Because they didn't camp some lvl 17 NM who gives you lvl 7 boots who is overcamped? I'll tell you what, as soon as you pay for someone else's account and PS2/PC and copy of FFXI and monthly fee, than feel free to tell them what they can and cannot do.

Undercutters are bad for some of you guys? Well, I am an undercutter. At any given time my mule, Crazybob, is on all ten slots of the price history at the Bastok AH for some overpriced item or other in Ifrit. Mean old undercutting Crazybob...well I'll tell you something. The profits that some people make are just monstrous. If I see something that is worth my time to trade I will trade it, and I end up undercutting everyone because they are too damn greedy to part with the item in question for any less than what they WANT for it.

The real problem for you people, not naming names, is that capitalism is about OPTIONS. Stopping people from undercutting you is easy....LOWER YOUR PRICES. If you can't (or don't) want to do that, petition SE until they make a version of FFXI with a communist economic system. That way you can have price controls and little sweetheart deals with the government of your respective nations and make all the money you want......just don't be surprised when other people don't want to play your Communist FFXI. Sure, they would miss out on the oppurtunity to pay twice as much for half the effectiveness as on a capitaist server, but you would have plenty of low-paying civil service jobs to offer them, at least. I always wonder if I get Iron Eater's position when I hit rank 4...that would be nice. Just assign adventurers missions and kick back with a Toothless Grin.....

Morons buy all their armor with real money traded for gil and than *gasp* play like morons? Hey, remember who you party with....if someone plays like an idiot it usually don't take all that long for them to show you how bad they are. The reverse can be true also....I have had the best parties be the ones where everyone dies in the first fight because of a miscalculation, yet somehow we would go on to make 3-4k xp an hour. I don't care if a moron has the best armor in the game; he or she or "she" will still be a moron. I could crap on a piece of bread and tell you it was a sandwich....but you can see with your own eyes that it's a pice of crap wrapped with bread. I keep an eye on all the best players I party with...you can too.

As far as making things fair, or being mad because some rich kid can buy gil that took you precious time to earn.....well, do you get mad at that same rich kid when he gets his sweet sixteen SUV while your piece of crap dodge stalls on the freeway and you sit there and hope nothing bad happens? First off, hey, at least you don't hafta worry about getting carjacked...second off, it's pretty pointlss to get mad at some rich kid for being, oh no, rich.

Now, you could say that I feel this way because of lack of morals; I see it this way because I am a CAPITALIST, plain and simple. If you still question my morals, than I have a moral conundrum for YOU: Can you guarantee me that no one has ever bought something from your AH with "bought" gil? If you can say to me, Yes Poncho, I have never accepted money from someone who bought it for real money off of website X, Y, or Z, than i would say OK, by your own standards, you are morally pure. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

^^

[fyrewyre]

It looks like some people have moral issues. Point is that this is illegal and people keep doing it when they shouldn't. Drug dealers try to make money by doing something deemed illegal, should they be allowed to get away with it? doesn't drugs effect the economy? its the same concept as selling gil and the BOTH have a penalty. Gil is SE's property and its clearly stated so why support other people who are doing something illegal?

If you have played an offline game like FF7, 8, 9, or 10 would you pay for gil? its an offline game so only you effect your ingame income (except 8 cause you had a salary job) now if you seen something in the shops and you needed the item what would you do? would you still want to buy gil if you could get it offline? lol. To get the money for that item you will farm or sell things you can or go without so why not do that in this game?

[csBahamut]

[QUOTE]Not everyone has time to become a level 75 l33t haxor with super duper ways of making gil. Some people have kids to feed, families to care for, bussiness to run, girlfriends to pamper, full time job/school to attend. But if these people would still like to enjoy the game the way they want to does that make them retarded? Leave them alone. It's none of your business. You're one who's retarded for mocking them.

What if a certain gil buyer tells you:"In real life, I can make 100x more then you ever will spending the same amount of time farming in FFXI". if you think about it, doesn't that make you a retard?

Be nice. Don't be immature. This thread should be locked/closed long ago.

Why do you think they buy gil? Because they're struggling that's why. They don't have the time to invest like you guys do. Please be a little more understanding. So if you're so cool, why don't you write up a faq on teaching these poor gil buyers how to make massive gil just like yourself so they can stop becoming retards? Oh wait, if everyone knows your primary source of income that'd ruin the economy too no? lol.QUOTE]

The whole calling names thing is out of hand and unnecessary. The person's level of intelligence has little to do with this. It's that person's set of values.

According to what you said here, it's ok for people to steal IF they are poor or need the money. Since I have a HUGE college loan to pay, you say it's OK for me to go rob somebody to pay my bills. This has not stood up in ANY court for a long time(as far as I know - Cant remeber every bit of world history).

Again, the game was design so that those that have lots of time to spend can feel a sense of accomplishment. It's not made for those people with very little time to quickly beat the game because they don't have the time to. There are other games designed to be that way. Don't try to change a game that's not yours to change.

If I have something ingame and one person wants to buy it for real money, it has a value. If I have an item and more than one person wanted to buy it, it would be worth more, simply because more than one How much more? It depends on two things:


1. The amount of money I want for said item-
2. The amount someone is willing to pay for said item-

Without these two factors in place, gil would be worthless in the real world. However, there is a thriving market for it because someone somewhere is willing to pay real money and forsake all the hassles of farming or camping NMs or crafting. If they have the money to buy gil, why shouldn't they be able to? Because they didn't earn all the money themselves? Because they didn't camp some lvl 17 NM who gives you lvl 7 boots who is overcamped? I'll tell you what, as soon as you pay for someone else's account and PS2/PC and copy of FFXI and monthly fee, than feel free to tell them what they can and cannot do.

I suggest everyone read the link that StarvingArtist posted. It explains everything. It shows both sides of the coin, and how the law currently holds up agains such issues. (That includes you too Poncho. That article explains in more detail the effects of selling things, and what type of law catigories they fall under.) There's more to the economy than simply supply and demand. when dealing with real world transactions, there are certain laws that come into play.

As far as making things fair, or being mad because some rich kid can buy gil that took you precious time to earn.....well, do you get mad at that same rich kid when he gets his sweet sixteen SUV while your piece of crap dodge stalls on the freeway and you sit there and hope nothing bad happens? First off, hey, at least you don't hafta worry about getting carjacked...second off, it's pretty pointlss to get mad at some rich kid for being, oh no, rich.

So you're telling poor people that they're not allowed to even PRETEND to be rich? People play video games to get away from the real world. Allowing people to use their real world wealth makes the game, no longer a place where everyone has to follow the same rules.




Read that link that StarvingArtist posted before posting anything. It's more than likely already refuted whatever reasoning you can come up with to support either side of this argument. Until the law makes a definite decision, it's up to the companies to try and police these things. And what they do will depends on what the majority of the players want(and what will keep them making money).