dear people who buy gil with real money

[LawDawg]

inflation is not really an issue. Price fluctuation is more attributed to the supply/demand of a server. In a server with a more "developed" economy (like the oldest, bahamut), prices get higher and lower. I'll take a "moderatly" priced item, Gluttony Sword. When I first started PLD, it was in the 150k range. When I purchased it, it was in the 70ks! I checked again yesterady, and it is back up to 150k. Supply and demand play a MUCH MUCH bigger role in price changes than anything. For example, Venemous Claw. At one point, there was not a single purchase for a month. When people started buying it again, the price was down from 5 million to 4 million. But a week later, the price was at 5.5 million! Why? High Demand, Low supply... But i'm sure you've heard this many-a-times.

Something more to the point: It is my personal opinion that buy-sellers do not add more money into the system then what would already be there. As someone pointed out, it is true they may add it "faster" then normal (which I agree and knew, but didn't mention as hoping someone with a semblence of intelligence might bring up ^_^), however, if anything, I think the effect is minimal. From my personal "research" (i.e. talking with gil-sellers), it is my opinion that of the "corporate" gil-sellers, they only make, at most, 1 million gil in a 24 hour period. Now of this 1 million gil, how much of it is "unintended" to be in the system (i.e. in the system "too quickly" (even though itd be in the system EVENTUALLY, ill consider it "unintended")? I'm going to be generous and say 250k. So 250K added to the economy a day. Does this have that big of an effect? I can't say, but my personal feeling is that 10+ million gil is "added" into the system daily, but A LOT of that gil is taken out of the system via eating food, potions, chocobos, airships, etc.

Oh well, I'm sticking to my case that gil-sellers have a minimal (if not non-existant) effect on the economy.

[KamaAina]

No the problem is not that they are "adding new gil", the problem is in the fact that people can just go out and buy millions of gil, and instantly have it. They did not the take the time to work for it and so they just go out and buy all the HQ+1 best of the best stuff they can, then more people do that and the demand keeps going up for the super expensive items. This isn't normal because usually only a certian number of people want to take the time to get all this really good gear, but when you can just go out and buy it and in 15 minutes you have it then anyone can get that gear.

That is why the price is going up, either that or more people are just getting high level and access to better ways to make gil. But gil buyers (sellers don't matter cause like you said they are not making gil) are not helping the problem.

And yes I am jealous.. because I always kinda thought I was special when I had the best gear I could have. Now I see tons of other people with the same and even better gear (gear that I thought was just impossible or not worth it). I am not saying they bought gil, and they probably didn't buy it. But if they did then yes that kind of makes me mad because I worked hard to be "special"

Since this is a thread directed at talking to people who buy gil I would just like to say to them that you are making a mistake, first of all is fake money really worth that much to you? Second it isn't that hard to make money get someone to show you how, and you wouldn't have to do it this way. Buy just buying your way to the best gear and stuff you are missing out on the fun of anticipation and once you have all of it, what then I bet you are going to be pretty depressed when you realize that this is all you have to show for those thousands of dollars you spent. And what if you get caught, all that money you invested in your character will be gone, all that time. It just isn't worth it. The fact is you dont NEED to have equipment that costs million of gil, I get it because it adds a new element to the game. But it is not what makes you the best player I have been outdamaged by people with cheap equipment before, it doesn't make you a god and people won't look up to you so why are you doing it? If you want those expensive things then earn it, you can get by with regular gear anyways so earn it on your free time as a little side mission for yourself then when you get it you will be a lot happier and can afford to get out of the house and get something nice to eat^^.

If people want to buy gil thats fine, I wouldn't and those are the reasons that I don't suggest it.

[LawDawg]

sorry... i dont see a problem like this on bahamut. If anything prices are generally staying the same or decreasing. You make it seem like because of gil-buying, people will realize that "omg, i should go out and get a peacock charm becuase there are so many gil-buyers that I can totally raise the price"... um no, what you dont realize is that every single spawn of the "super rare" item NMs (like argus, eastern shadow, HNMs) are basically camped to hell. Gil buyers don't increase the number of dropped items, nor does it change the drop rate. If you are seeing a large price increase, its probably because no one can get argus to drop the peacock charm... thats too bad, wait a few months and the price will be back to normal. Like I said, in a developed economy, I do not see this problem.

Btw, this statement:
"then more people do that and the demand keeps going up for the super expensive items"

uh no.. that is completely false.

edit: I'll have to apologize ahead of time if my post(s) have really bad flow, or if I'm too lazy to fully explain my arguments...trying to get some work done at the same time

[KamaAina]

Well I dont want to argue with you and I see what you mean.

But this is what I was trying to say. That before (okay im not saying it is just gil buyers or that they are why, it might be that just more people have gil now) there were only a certian number of people who could go out and buy the super expensive items.

There isnt more of these items its just that they are snatched up so quickly that people can set whatever price they want for them and people will get them. I have seen both Eurytos bow go up in price by 1 milllion gil in about 1 hour. One would sell for 3.5 the next for 4.5 because people just buy it as fast as they can. The prices are higher on Asura, and it might just be that more people here are higher level, but when people buy millions of gil and have enough gil to just go out and pick up a peacock charm like its nothing at lvl 36 then it does kinda affect it.


By creating more people with loads of gil they are increasing the demand (not the supply). And that is why the price is going up, because there are more people now with lots of gil who want the expensive items and are willing to do whatever it takes to get them.

but regardless of whether its messing with the economy or not I just think it is stupid to spend that much money on gil. I could never do it, I went to one of the sites (they advertise on top of Killingifrits website) and it was insanely expensive.. if anything it made me want to sell my gil so I could actually eat decently.

I probably shouldn't even be playing a game where I have to pay every month (well actually I pay a friend who then pays the bill which brings me to a question how do I get the credit card information changed to my name.. it was his account he got me started playing on it and we kinda played toegether but then he quit and gave it to me but we lost the password and so I am afraid to change anything cause I dont want to lose my character and.. wow I bet that didn't make any sense lol)

[LawDawg]

Inflation is happening all over all the servers. In some servers, its more apparent than others, but it is happening. This is because there is a lot more ways to put money in the system then take it out. (two big ones come to mind: tiger teeth and padded caps) Not to mention the money you get from completing quests and missions. I believe Icemage posted a very good post about this very issue (maybe its in this thread, cant remember), but the point is inflation is occuring. In a stable economy, the prices will eventually increase, because, statistically, the amount of uber-items in the account house will remain the same, but the amount of gil in the system will increase... thus higher prices. My point is that gil-buyers have a very small effect on this inflation. Sure theres an effect, but its small. So small that I would claim a smart person (in control of the uber-items) can extremely manipulate prices simply by the current supply/demand.

[KamaAina]

But I didn't think it would be this drastic because its not like someone is out there tossing all these items and even if they dont sell them back (adding to the number being sold then at least it should be one potential buyer off the market you know?).

I dont know I don't know much about the economic of this game really, I can make gil okay but I am not very good at managing it. I am too impatient to wait for prices to go down, and then it seems like everytime I sell something the price has gone way down /sigh

So I believe what you are saying.

But you can't deny that having more rich people at lower levels because they can just buy gil isn't exactly helping prices going down.

[Braanu]

KamaAina, let me give you some advice now. Stop discussing this with Lawdawg if you have a different opinion than he does. He wont let you have your opinion. He will come back with some lame ass excuse for how gil buying/selling doesnt affect the economy and simply cannot leave anyone's post alone that contradicts that.

Just look at his history on this thread and any other relating to this type of topic. He is an avid spokesperson for gil buying and swears it gives people a reason to keep playing the game, and that it does not hurt anyone in the process. There is no way to change his view. There is no way to have your own opinion and express it without Lawdawg having to come and attack your opinion and try to shoot it down with his "logic".

I think I'd die of heart attack if I were to read a post from someone saying gil buying is bad and hurts the economy and it wasnt Lawdawg with the very next post about how they're completely wrong and "here's why...".

[Braanu]

Originally posted by KamaAina
But you can't deny that having more rich people at lower levels because they can just buy gil isn't exactly helping prices going down.

Yes he can. And if I hadnt posted my post above to distract him, you would get to hear him doing just that. Heck, maybe he'll still give us his opinion. I can only hold my breath and hope...

[KamaAina]

okay... how is it helping?

He said how it wasn't the main reason why prices are going up and he is probably right. But how is it helping.

I am not trying to argue I think Lawdawg has alot of great points, but the more wealthier people there are the more prices willl keep going up whether this is because of buying gil or just being able to get more easier.

[Grand Lethal]

I wasn't going to add anything else to this, but had to agree witha point Kama made:

I think that people who buy gil just get it so easily that they are willing to bid at whatever price, so while normally the price would go back down cause no one would bid that high it just keeps climbing. And then people like me have no choice but to buy it for whatever insane price its going for or else it will just go higher and higher.

This is the biggest problem, I see this at all levels in the game and I'll bring my first instance that I really noticed it up:

Its not just gil farmers that ruin the economy, its stupid people... and their seem to be lots of them out there, but again its the "rush, rush, rush, I need everything right now!!" attitude that prevails.

I was working up Norg fame (put up your hand if you've had the pleasure of doing this before), so I'm doing the yag necklaces because I was in Windy and had done it a few times already, so I go to AH and get about 5 necklaces at 150 gil each... after that it didn't work, so I went to 175, got another 2, went to 190 got 12, got to 200 and got another 5, then I couldn't get anymore at that price, so I stopped. I did all the trading, came back and started at 15 again, and surprise I couldn't get any... I ended up at 200 again right off the bat and only 6 new ones there before the jump again... this was gonna take a while... But that wasn't the end of it... all of a sudden someone buys a yag necklace for 250... then 300!! I'm like WTF!!! now everyone is selling their yag necklaces high (and who can blame 'em, someones buyin' 'em for that much right?).

Supply and demand is one thing, but player stupidity is another, we can keep prices down if we don't cave in to the gouging that is going on (if you are on Midgard like me though, you are hooped because of the NC LS). But thats where the Gil buyers are ruining it, yes its money that would be there anyway (In a sense, if no one was buying it, then there would be no need for it, and it wouldn't be there in abundance), but its the attitude behind it thats frustrating... I'll hold out for lower prices on somethign for as long as a week or two for it to drop again, but others say "I got all this gil and more is just a credit card purchase away, here is your money mr. gouger", so now its reading that people will pay that amount (or more) and thus the new standing price is set.

I HAVE taken economics before, and the more money you pump into a fixed market, the lower its overall value becomes... Thus prices increase on high demand items exponentially, and as the saying goes: "The rich get richer, while the poor get poorer", NC is now buying high priced items and actually putting them into the auction with one character and buying it at a higher price with another to jack up prices and making sure that the prices stay high on items they are crafting.

If you ask me, SE needs to do soemthing drastic to help the economy of this game because it is really headed to the crapper... and if I've noticed it already at 30, then I feel horrible for the people further into the game...

[BeardedHume]

Well, I think the only way to change something like that is to control the market yourself. Everyone starts out in the same situation when they begin FFXI: dirt-broke, and looking for easy gil. Those who 'inflate' the price, even if they bought their way to the top, had to have done some work to get to where they are now. And when it all boils down to it, they still have to compete with others on their level of market clout.

Price adjustments--in all forms of ridiculousness--represent the other edge of the sword in this player-controlled economy. The poor can rise up and play alongside those who are at the top too...there's nary a thing stopping them. The rich do indeed get richer, yes. But the poor can get rich too, because there are opportunities everywhere.

Hee...know what would be a really interesting social experiment? Wealth redistribution. Wonder how long that'd last before people just cut of the game entirely. :spin:

[Omniblast]

Well since this thread hasn't been locked yet, I think I'll contribute to this.

I've faced this problem before buying light crystals. About 3 weeks ago, light crystals on my server (Shiva) use to be 4900 to 5000 gil a stack. Now they have jumped to 8000, and slowly declined within the past week to 6000~6500. In Rabao all the fish bots purchase crystals at high prices because their return is still more than the cost of the crystals. This causes the seller to raise the prices on the crystals because people will buy it. (A simple way to see if someone fish bots if they post on the forums is to see if their blacksmith skill is capped at 34)

Now when the crystals are going down in price there are generally 2 things you can do.
1) Help lower the price by bidding atleast 100 gil lower than the previous bid
2) Purchase clusters if they cost less than the stack of crystals.

Other reason why costs may go up.
1) People using "Auction House bots" to purchase multiple times of the same item, and when it returns that famous line "You are unable to purchase <item name> for <gil amount>" the bots will automatically go up by 100 gil or so. (This is a guess of what it does, I've never used a auction bot before).
2) "I have more gil than you and I can afford this item for X amount of gil which I practically got for free." « that attitude is one of the most troublesome concerns in a economy.

In any and all cases 5% of the population owns 95% of the wealth Take my server as an example again. Apos has sold 8 Noble's Tunics in the Auction. He sold it for 10 million each. I have no idea if he purchased the Shining Cloth or fought Kirin/Behemoth for it. Now that is just plain annoying. How do we conpensate for that? Is a Noble's Tunic really that far out of our reach?

You can take another example into consideration. The first Kraken club sold on Shiva was 10 Million. The last couple of sales has been 30 million each. (Two on the Auction House right now, and I was unable to buy it for 300k, ehh worth a shot). With the current gil costing rates, it costs about $7,500 USD to buy Kraken Club. (Who's going to spend 7 thousand on a virtual club? You may be surprised.) However, I have been looking into buying gil, and no site has enough gil to cover 30 million. Each site averaging about 2 million or so per purchase. I havn't bothered ordering multiple times, or ordering at all but their drop down menus suggest only 2 million max per purchase.

One way to get rid of all this extra gil is to place a special "Tax" on the person with the most gil. (OMG THAT WOULD SUCK IF YOU WERE THE RICHEST PERSON ON THE SERVER! But I know you guys arn't so it wouldn't matter) This would be one way to filter out the gil. Another way that they have implemented is the Chocobo Costs, but this doesn't help the poorer players. Airship costs always remain the same at 200 gil.

One sick way I can think of to filter out the money is aparantly the TAX.

Anyways, I'm done with my rant. I'm going to kill Apos one day and steal all his/her gil. Then maybe I can split it with some of my friends or hand out to charity. ^_^.;;

[LawDawg]

I'm not going to respond to Braanu since its really up to you who you agree with... I really could care less which side you take, all I am doing is defending my own opinion. Of course I have to consider it to be 100% correct, otherwise I wouldn't be able to defend it properly.. but moving on...

I believe Omniblast has a good point. I may not support the whole idea of "taxing the rich", but I believe SE needs to find some more "high level money sinks". Meaning finding ways for high levels to get money out of the system. One of the best things I can think of is Dynamis. Each dynamis run removes at least 1million gil from the system (not including all the potions/food you need to buy). And "basically" zero gil is reintroduced. This is because the items received in dynamis are mostly "priceless". They are rare/ex and have no value in the game, OR they are used to earn a rare/ex item (the relic upgrades). Thus a lot of money leaves the system this way. I believe if SE can add a few more "money sinks" in the mid-high level range, we can see inflation DECREASE, which is a good thing.

Finally, another thing I have to point out. The nature of gil-sellers is very interesting on the economy. In reality, they don't actual add GIL to the system, they add items (which have some "value"). So in reality, they farm for items, "trade" these items for gil, and then transfer this gil to other players. In a sense, they don't "add" any substantial gil to the system. The only time "gil" is added to the system is via quests/missions/minimal drops from mobs/etc. You can argue that becuase gil-sellers add so many new items to the economy, there is a higher demand to "make gil" via these methods... This is unproven, however, and from another aspect, you could say gil-sellers are "helping" (lol, dont get angry) the economy becauase they add more items into the system, therefore reducing the cost of the items (this could be a bad or good thing).

My opinion is, unattended fish botters harm the economy a lot more. This is because their main source of income is selling padded caps to NPC, which introduces a lot of gil to the system. From what I've read, these unattended bots can make 300k/day. (This is way more gil then a gil-seller introduces, which is way more than a lot of players introduce).

[ibroyles]

I'm convinced that gil sellers don't have quite the impact on the economy some people are leading to believe, that's why I personally have never used it as an argument on why gil selling is wrong. I think any high level character can make potentially more gil in a day than all the gil sellers on the server combined(after checking AH on higher priced items, there's obviously certain high-level non gil-selling players that dominate these). After all, I have a friend at Lv45 that made 800k the other day....try making that just farming mobs and see how close you get.

EDIT: Forgot to add, whether or not the gil-buyers affect the economey(as stated in previous posts) is debatable and is probably specific to each person. It's all relative to what one person views as valuable enough to them(in real life) to actually pay. I mean, it's still costing money, you don't just want to blow your whole bank wad on an item in a game. Potentially one very rich(IRL) person on one server might ruin the economy by repeatedly purchasing gil and not giving a care in the world if they jump the item price by 1mil, but there's not too many of your average gil buyer that are willing to spend $200 or whatever just to get an item they know might drop back down in price.

[Braanu]

Originally posted by LawDawg
Finally, another thing I have to point out. The nature of gil-sellers is very interesting on the economy. In reality, they don't actual add GIL to the system, they add items (which have some "value"). So in reality, they farm for items, "trade" these items for gil, and then transfer this gil to other players. In a sense, they don't "add" any substantial gil to the system. The only time "gil" is added to the system is via quests/missions/minimal drops from mobs/etc. You can argue that becuase gil-sellers add so many new items to the economy, there is a higher demand to "make gil" via these methods... This is unproven, however, and from another aspect, you could say gil-sellers are "helping" (lol, dont get angry) the economy becauase they add more items into the system, therefore reducing the cost of the items (this could be a bad or good thing).

I agree 100% that fish botters have a much larger impact than these gil sellers who get their gil from farming monsters. I'm pretty sure though, that some of the money from these gil selling companies does come from fish bots. Why would they not tap that resource for gil too since it is so much quicker and they can leave computers 100% unattended to do that.

However, one thing of note about what you said that monster farmers for gil dont add gil to the economy en-mass. Well, last night my static PT ended early and I had 3hrs to kill. I went to Upper Delkfutt's Tower again. Killed Gigas there alot, more than anything else, and found the chest 3 times each time getting gil and not the Emeth Pick. When I went to check my gil after the 3hrs and before I went to bed, I had made about 20k in instant gil. That doesnt count the Lightning Clusters and Pot Shards and Mercury I farmed too. Ending, Faerieanna, and Qingzi (or whatever his name is) farm this tower all day every day. If I could introduce 20k in 3hrs by myself....how much you think these 3 could introduce as a 3-man team (2 being DRG and 1 a WHM) after a full day in the tower?