dear people who buy gil with real money

[lun4tic]

The fact that you used the word uber tells me that something isn't all that it's claimed. It's easy to tell you're jealous, and at level 30, equipment is extremely cheap. If you're not jealous now, you will be later.

Hell I'm jealous these people have it to easy, but I'm also jealous that people can farm for hours to afford this stuff. I just don't have the time.

[ibroyles]

Dude I'm not jealous, I don't know how many times I will have to say this before you understand. I have all the items I could possibly want at this level(with the exception of 2, which I have full intention of farming for before I move on). I challenge you to look at my profile and find items that would be better for THF at this level, and when you find the 2 I am talking about you will know what I mean when I say I am maxed. While I know that equipment at LV30 isn't in the millions, I will have spent around 800-900k by LV30, without ever laying a finger on gil-buying websites. Sure, this isn't that much gil, I know that items get more expensive as you level, but come on, my main class is at 30, so its not necessarily expected for me to be paying this much for equips. However, suprise, I actually put some time and thought into the game to learn how to make good gil, and I've become pretty productive at it. I think its part of the game, so the better I get at it means the better of a player I am(in my eyes). It's all relative, while a LV50 player like yourself who has to shell out for Sniper Ring's might not think that's very much money, at the same time I can't farm in certain places where you can.

I don't really feel the need to prove myself to you, but it looks like you're the one who's jealous and you're trying to push your emotions off on me. I would get tired of the game if I bought gil, it just isn't cool in my book, even if I was a millionaire IRL.

[Midgetoplenty]

Dodgers!?

no dodger fans hu?

[lun4tic]

Originally posted by ibroyles
Dude I'm not jealous, I don't know how many times I will have to say this before you understand. I have all the items I could possibly want at this level(with the exception of 2, which I have full intention of farming for before I move on). I challenge you to look at my profile and find items that would be better for THF at this level, and when you find the 2 I am talking about you will know what I mean when I say I am maxed. While I know that equipment at LV30 isn't in the millions, I will have spent around 800-900k by LV30, without ever laying a finger on gil-buying websites. Sure, this isn't that much gil, I know that items get more expensive as you level, but come on, my main class is at 30, so its not necessarily expected for me to be paying this much for equips. However, suprise, I actually put some time and thought into the game to learn how to make good gil, and I've become pretty productive at it. I think its part of the game, so the better I get at it means the better of a player I am(in my eyes). It's all relative, while a LV50 player like yourself who has to shell out for Sniper Ring's might not think that's very much money, at the same time I can't farm in certain places where you can.

I don't really feel the need to prove myself to you, but it looks like you're the one who's jealous and you're trying to push your emotions off on me. I would get tired of the game if I bought gil, it just isn't cool in my book, even if I was a millionaire IRL.

Jealous of what? I've farmed gill for weeks, I've bought gil; I know both sides of the spectrum.

Life is about instant gratification, and long term gratification. The bonus with instant gratification is that it's instant.

[fyrewyre]

Until people here have developed their own 'Final Fantasy' or other type of popular mmorpg, they will never realize how other people selling your property and making money off of it (did we stress the fact that this is stealing?), is fustrating (because you need solid proof that personX is selling gil before sending that subopena) and in the end screwing with your dayjob.

Im betting that SE devs put time into this game (no shit eh?) and expexted to get a big payout for their time spent as well as the lawyers, shippers, etc. This is their game that they let us use and how does some of us repay them? fucking with their paycheck. Honestly i think this game should be 17 a month or more but they lowered the price compared to other mmorpgs that are like 15+. I would be pissed if i spend a year on my game to find out some people arent spending time, but are using some outside source to 'Beat an unbeatable game' but i would laugh at them cause i know that there are soooooooooooo many easy ways to make gil.

Honestly, there are 5 EASY GREAT ways to make money off of an npc so you dont have to interact with PCs or the economy nor undercutting and dont say 5 'isnt enough' cause its enough to make big sums of gil with a good deal of effort while the others take very little to none. The reason the themis report was made is because buying gil has an effect and it has been proven MANY times over and over. Not spending time on the game cuts back on the money SE earns and puts that cash in someone elses pocket. How? easy, the amount of time spent farming from now to the release should = 3months atleast so your tossing away money away from who it pretty much belongs to and 'funding terrorism' lmao omniblast and you may have a point....
-

i gotta get going but i'll edit this when the DSL guy get here...

[csBahamut]

Life is about instant gratification, and long term gratification. The bonus with instant gratification is that it's instant.

And this here is the real reason views differ. Some people prefer to live on a string of 'instant gratifications', while others have choose the long term.

The 'instants' want everything "NOW NOW NOW!", while the 'long timers' are patient and have learned to enjoy the little things as they work up to the big thing that the 'instant' wants right away. The 'instants' level of happiness is like a sine wave. The 'long timers' level of hapiness is more like an exponetial curve. Either way seems to work fine for people, but most true hard-core RPG players are 'long timers'. Why else do RPGs last so long(i.e. DnD games that last YEARS).

Jealous of what? I've farmed gill for weeks, I've bought gil; I know both sides of the spectrum.

Ah...so you want that option available in case you fall behind and can't catch up? Are you afraid that your friends will pass you up and not wait for you? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider somebody a friend if they didn't want to wait for me with even one job. Well, it probably doesn't matter anyways. Your inability to follow rules makes no diference in this thread.

It's not the responsability of third parties to improve a game already developed(unless subcontracted by the company). What right(as in a constitutional or law based right) do these companies have to make money off a product they have no rights to? It's one thing if SE wants to sell gil to players. That's OK by me. But if some third party wants to make money off a game and screw up everything for their own greed(and people buy the gil for their own greedy disires and wants), then I can't condone their actions. Would you like it if you had mad a game yourself to make money, and someone else would come by and make money off YOUR game without asking your permission? I can't walk into a store, pick of one of their products off the shelves, and sell it to a customer in the store. A third party selling gil is sort of like paying for access to a SAM's Club, then paying some non-employee money to find and buy some item for you(and thus earning themself a profit in the proccess too). Do you think the owner of Sam's Club would allow that to happen? Would you, as the owner of SAM's Club, like to have third parties make money in your store? Stores in malls. They get to sell stuff in the mall, but they ave to pay the mall owner money to be allowed to sell stuff there. Same with fast food places inside big stores.

I doubt the major supporters of gil buying will change their minds, but I hope those teettering on the fence will come to their senses and not give in to their greed at the expense of others.

BTW, gil buying does affect the game. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You can keep believing that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it doesn't really affect the game.

[lun4tic]

Originally posted by csBahamut

Ah...so you want that option available in case you fall behind and can't catch up? Are you afraid that your friends will pass you up and not wait for you? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider somebody a friend if they didn't want to wait for me with even one job. Well, it probably doesn't matter anyways. Your inability to follow rules makes no diference in this thread.

BTW, gil buying does affect the game. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You can keep believing that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it doesn't really affect the game.

You need serious help if you think a friend would wait for you to level up to their level, or get equipment like their before leveling. I don't expect my friends to do anything like that, and they all have passed me by. If I did expect them to wait, they'd laugh at me, like normal people would.

If somebody were giving you free gil, would you take it? It's exactly like buying gil, except that you havn't spent the real life money for it. As far as the game world goes, it's the exact same transaction. Somebody gives you gil.

My inability to follow rules stems from the lack of rule enforcement. Just because you put rules in writing does not mean that people will follow them. Stop being such a prick about buying gil and get with it. It's like homosexuality; it's all around us, there's nothing you can do about it, and getting red neck angry won't help.

People need to stop making threads and reviving old ones because there's nothing that can be done about it. People can critisize the people who buy gil all they want, but it's only because they're jealous. The people who buy gil are the ones who really enjoy the game.

Gil buyers don't quit at 40 because they can't get parties with their crappy equipment. They don't quit because they're tired of farming their lives away for a haubergon. They're the people with multiple high level jobs, the one starting a new one in addition.

SE doesn't sell gil, so they aren't losing money to people who do. It's their fault they aren't prosecuting the people making money off of their work. If they were so concerned they'd do something.

In reality they know it'd cost way more to prosecute these people then it would to continue letting them sell gil. Guess what? The people buying gil are paying for their account, the people selling gil are paying for their account. SE is making money.

SE doesn't care.

[csBahamut]

You need serious help if you think a friend would wait for you to level up to their level, or get equipment like their before leveling. I don't expect my friends to do anything like that, and they all have passed me by. If I did expect them to wait, they'd laugh at me, like normal people would.

You must have crappy friends, or a different concept of what you consider a friend. My friends care about me and my happiness(as do I about theirs). People that just use me to obtain something, they're not a friend. They're only using me.

If somebody were giving you free gil, would you take it? It's exactly like buying gil, except that you havn't spent the real life money for it. As far as the game world goes, it's the exact same transaction. Somebody gives you gil.

Only if I already knew and trusted the person. I'm not greedy. I could care less if I have lots of gil or not. I work for what I want, and I'll accept nothing less. I never borrow gil either. Never have, never will.

People need to stop making threads and reviving old ones because there's nothing that can be done about it. People can critisize the people who buy gil all they want, but it's only because they're jealous. The people who buy gil are the ones who really enjoy the game.

Do they really enjoy the game if they're willing to ruin it for their own selfish enjoyment? Are you sure they just don't want to get to some point in the game to beat it, or spend time with friends?

Gil buyers don't quit at 40 because they can't get parties with their crappy equipment. They don't quit because they're tired of farming their lives away for a haubergon. They're the people with multiple high level jobs, the one starting a new one in addition.

So that gives the right to break the law?

SE doesn't sell gil, so they aren't losing money to people who do. It's their fault they aren't prosecuting the people making money off of their work. If they were so concerned they'd do something.

They can't do anything about it until the courts make a ruling, or congress passes a new law. There's loopholes in the current laws that make it possible for gil sellers to get away with this.

In reality they know it'd cost way more to prosecute these people then it would to continue letting them sell gil. Guess what? The people buying gil are paying for their account, the people selling gil are paying for their account. SE is making money.

Making money off something that's not theirs to sell. It would actually be worth it to prosecute the major gil selling sites, and any sites that support such activity, if the courts would make a decision on Intellectual Proterty.

My inability to follow rules stems from the lack of rule enforcement. Just because you put rules in writing does not mean that people will follow them. Stop being such a prick about buying gil and get with it. It's like homosexuality; it's all around us, there's nothing you can do about it, and getting red neck angry won't help.

Won't hold up in court. Just because it can't be enforced doesn't mean its OK to break the law. Try telling the judge that the next time you get a speeding ticket.

SE doesn't care.

Not really. They just can't do much about it. Gil/item selling still goes on in other MMORPGs like EQ, even after those MMORPG creators tried to prevent it.

If you feel that you'll never get punished, then go ahead, buy gil. Of course, all the people who got into car accidents and didn't wear their seatbelts also thought it wouldn't happen to them. The chances of getting caught and banned may be slim right now, but it could still happen. Just remember that by breaking the law, you choose to accept the consequences of your actions, and nothing you can say or do will save you.

[Arli]

I have to say this is probably one of the most heated discussions i've ever had the pleasure of reading on these forums. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, but I need to add to the discussion.

Assumption:
Buying gil hurts Square Enix's profit so by banning people who buy and sell gil they help themselves.

Reality:
The source of gil sold by companies like IGE are from their own employees and many legitimate players who choose to sell their gil for real money. Likewise, people who buy gil are paying their $12.95 a month also. A sweeping ban of anyone participating in real money for gil transactions would result in a massive reduction in their player base. All fairness aside, Square Enix IS a business, and losing what could potentially be 10% of their subscriber base is simply bad business. While it is a violation of their EULA, the problem is so widespread at curing this "cancer" would kill the patient ~_~


Assumption:
Buying and selling gil is untraceable by Square Enix.

Reality:
Absolute bullshit. Every verbal message sent and every item traded is recorded in server logs. A simple snoop for key words or key amounts can narrow likely candidates who are participating in illegal in-game activities. Certain actions like receiving several million gil from another player who isn't in your friend's list is also a highly suspicious sign. The tools and data *are* available to snoop out these kind of activities and has been used before. These are also the same tools that confirm if a player is using a bought account. Those of you who do buy and sell gil genuinely do this at great risk to your account.


Assumption:
Buying gil doesn't affect the in-game economy.

Reality:
Again, total horseshit. In any economy, there is a flexible amount of funds that is traded between parties. As the amount of consumers in an economy increase, so should this overall income. When the amount of income in an economy increases disproportionately to the amount of consumers, more money is required to purchase items than before. This is because the economy has to circulate all this new income, so the average worth per gil decreases, and sellers will ask for more and more money for their items to keep up with the economy. Some of you might remember this phenomina as inflation.

Likewise, when there is less money in an economy, the value per monetary unit is worth more, provided that economy produces and consumes items that are beleived to be of value. With the continued erratic introduction of new gil into the economy, players who participate in this oversaturation unwittingly cause prices to rise on desired items. This forces legitimate players to spend even MORE time farming for their gil. The economy on Midgardsormr is a prime example.


Anyway, this little reply ended up being far longer than I had anticipated. In short, alot of the points expressed in this thread are valid, but many of them are also invalid. People who chose to buy and sell gil do take a risk in their actions of losing their privelidge to play, but likewise, many of them have valid reasons to do what they do. I do not condone their actions, as it does have a marked negative impact on the economy, thereby affecting everyone in the game - but I am not condemning them for what they might beleive to be a valid reason for their actions. Real money and fake money, it doesn't make a difference - the one tangible asset that this equates to is "time" and how people choose to spend it as their own currency.

[csBahamut]

Excellent points Arli. Just one word in your post bugs me:

While it is a violation of their EULA, the problem is so widespread at curing this "cancer" would kill the patient ~_~

Could would be the more apropriate word. While '"curing this cancer" could harm SE's profits by causing players to quit. Since we don't know the exact number of players buying gil yet, or the number that don't want gil buying to become a part of FFXI, not "curing this cancer" could cause even more people to quit(like possibly myself and my entire LS).

[Kiaya]

Does it matter? Whether someone bought gil or farmed it, it's their money... if they wanna blow it on fake stuff.. I say let them. :\

I would never waste my money on something like this. Ever, personally.

[lun4tic]

Originally posted by csBahamut
So that gives the right to break the law?

There are no laws against buying and selling gil, just flimsy rules set by the companies that created these games.

I've made my point and it stands as: It may be against their rules, but rules aren't followed if they aren't enforced. Morally, buying gil is exactly the same as paying for your character. It's quick money, which is hard to come buy and provides instant gratification. It adds fun to the game.

[Braanu]

Originally posted by lun4tic
There are no laws against buying and selling gil, just flimsy rules set by the companies that created these games.

I've made my point and it stands as: It may be against their rules, but rules aren't followed if they aren't enforced. Morally, buying gil is exactly the same as paying for your character. It's quick money, which is hard to come buy and provides instant gratification. It adds fun to the game.

And I see why you dont post your in-game name. Cause you know legit players will start /blist'ing you on your server when they read this thread cause you're a gil buying whore.

[csBahamut]

There are no laws against buying and selling gil, just flimsy rules set by the companies that created these games.

No, the ToS states that items/gil can't be sold. It's the law that has the loopholes. The Law allows these companies to claim that they're selling their time(or whatever).

[Mal]

Honestly, are you guys all done being whiny babies, yet?

Seriously, I could understand some of the arguments against botting, but buying/selling Gil affects NOBODY except those who choose to participate in it. Hearing these theories like "WELL THE PEOPLE SELLING GIL ARE PROBABLY BOTTING" or "IT'S NOT FAIR FOR SOMEBODY TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD AND ITEM I WANT; THEY'LL GET IT BEFORE I WANT IT" or even "THAT MONEY IS MONEY SQUARE ENIX WILL NEVER SEE, AND NEVER GET TO USE TO IMPROVE THE GAME" just makes me laugh. I laugh because those of you opposed to Gil selling are grasping at straws for decent arguments to make.

I do not buy Gil, and I would never spend more money than necessary on this game, but really, why should I care if somebody else does it? Yeah, it's technically breaking the rules. WHY DO ANY OF YOU CARE? Farming in this game, I've found, is rather boring. Plenty of things in this game are boring. I can see why some people would skip all of that and just buy some Gil. It takes away from their gaming experience, but again, THIS DOES NOT AFFECT ME OR ANY OF YOU, so why should we care about it?

The amount of nosy busybodies in this game just frightens me. Plenty of think hold this mindset that if enough people continue to break a certain rule, the very balance of the entire game's existance will come crumbling down. Give it a REST.