dear people who buy gil with real money

[LawDawg]

well personally, i've been arguing the whole time on the "morality" of gil-buying/selling. I personally don't see anything wrong with it, MORALLY. If your argument is that "its against the rules", that doesn't mean that its immoral. If there was a rule that said "you have to MPK anyone who wears a red hat" well would following that rule be moral or immoral? No one here is arguing that gil-buying/selling is against the rules... WE ALL KNOW THAT ALREADY. But the question is, is gil buying alright, given the circumstances, even though its against the rules... same as stealing bread to feed your family.... against the rules, but is it ok?

[emitsu97]

I've understood the thread as being discussed with regard to SE's current stance. Which is very clear. TOS says bad. But I think with the way the thread has evolved, it's beginning to show that SE needs to expand the variety of gil gaining methods. Kind of like the "Supply and Demand" that's been thrown around earlier. A percentage of the customer base is demanding an easier or at the very least more enjoyable method to obtaining gil, but who is supplying said method?

[Onte]

I gave you a reason why I think you should stop touting that link. You've linked it 975,000 times in this thread and yet you say nothing different every time you post. All you've said is that cheating is bad, you don't like cheating, given a few weird off-base analogies and hidden behind a link you think proves it all because someone who shares your viewpoints wrote it.

Your basis for saying buying gil is wrong, cheating and immoral. Well, that's all personal opinion and you've done quite a good job in expressing that, so why not step off and realize you don't have to be the one with the last word (or link) every time, eh?

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm personally attacking you, but I take great offense at many of the generalizations you fling around and I take great offense at the fact that you really do believe your set of morals is the basis for all that is good and great.

[LionhartPLD]

in a previous anology by SA
A college student works 4 years attending and passing classes to get his/her degree. Then someone comes along and spends 1 year and gets the same degree by paying for his/her credits instead of earning them.

I would like to see a single one of you people who favors gil buying come up with a single reason why that is right and the person who payed for credits deserves them.

or even the anology about trophies. Say an athlete wins a medal in the olympics and then sells it to someone for money who then claims that they EARNED it. Did they really earn it? Do they deserve it? I'd like to know how...

[emitsu97]

Both examples would be morally wrong by today's social standards because many RL ppl would be affected. This is a game and although your virtual alter ego MAY be affected(hasn't been conclusively determined in this specific scenario), the RL you wouldn't lose a job, a loved one, suffer a horrible future from a crappy job, etc., etc. It wouldn't appear on the 11 o'clock news, nor in the New York Times. It didn't for other MMO's, and this one seems to be that much better equipped to handle this kind of thing.

[Faust]

Since when did breaking rules and cheating become wrong just as a matter of opinion?

Breaking the rules IS WRONG period. Otherwise it wouldn't be AGAINST the rules. There's no real "gray" area there. The only arguments that have come across in the effort to defend gil buying were nothing more than a collection of whines and lame excuses. Regardless of the excuse, it's still cheating, which is not a matter of opinion, but plain and simple fact.

It was mentioned "What if one of the rules was to MPK people wearing red hats?" There's a lot more that needs to be fleshed out with that. Why are they wearing the red hats? Why would there even be a rule to MPK people wearing red hats unless there was a specific reason to do so?

[emitsu97]

How many times have you gone over the speed limit?

[LawDawg]

Originally posted by LionhartPLD
in a previous anology by SA
A college student works 4 years attending and passing classes to get his/her degree. Then someone comes along and spends 1 year and gets the same degree by paying for his/her credits instead of earning them.

I would like to see a single one of you people who favors gil buying come up with a single reason why that is right and the person who payed for credits deserves them.
.

The point is, so what? He gets his degree, how is that affecting you? So someone got his degree by using a method frowned upon, in the end, if there is a job opening, and you both are trying to get it, who will earn it? Hopefully the person who spent 4 years getting the degree, but maybe not. Just because the person bought the degree doesn't mean he doesn't deserve one. He could be 10 times smart/more skilled than the person who worked 4 years in college... (passing college is not even that hard)

This is the same with FFXI. So what, some one got their leaping boots by buying it instead of earning it. How does this affect you? When it comes to PTing, he either sucks or is good. In reality gil-buying (besides the "possible (but unlikely)" economic effects) actually HELPs us. People with better equipment means better PTs and thus faster EXP for all of us. And please, please don't argue that gil buying makes a player unskilled...

Edit: Guy with the dancing lion avatar: you have to be pretty ignorant to think that EVERY LAW AND RULE in the world is morally correct.... Sure SE isn't the WORLD, WHICH IS EXACTLY THE POINT. It's funny, there was a huge argument how BOTTING IS EVIL, but guess what, the rules say YOU CAN BOT!!! Just because you break a rule doesn't mean your immoral or wrong, it means your a rule-breaker... depending on the rule, you may be wrong or right... doesn't matter. And just because you follow the rules (botting) doesn't mean you are morally correct.

[Faust]

Originally posted by emitsu97
How many times have you gone over the speed limit?

What does that have to do with anything that I've said?

[LawDawg]

cause, if youve ever gone over the speed limit, your a evil person, and should be kicked out of the real world cause your a CHEATER!! YOUR CHEATING THE KEEP-YOUR-SPEED-UNDER-SPEED-LIMIT RULE!! CHEATER!!! DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[Faust]

I've sped, I've got my tickets. Is it right to do so? No. I've broken the law. Ok. Is it immoral to do so? Admittedly yes. Do I deny it? Nope. I've gotten penalized as required by law. Now if getting kicked out of the real world was the penalty. I highly doubt anyone would speed.

Did I mention anyone cheating being evil? I'd like to see quote please. I've already previously stated that WITH REFERENCE TO THE GAME, as far as people cheating to get ahead in the game, I have no respect for people's playing ability when they break the rules to get ahead. I think it's being lazy. And I think it's immoral. I don't understand what point your trying to prove. It doesn't prove in any way that cheating is right.

[LawDawg]

no my point is, just because you break a rule doesn't make you immoral... I really don't see how buying gil makes you LAZY (i've already mentioned why in previous posts). If your only argument why gil-buying is IMMORAL is that its AGAINST THE RULES AND ITS CHEATING, well I'll say it again... just because its against the rules doesn't make it immoral. AND YES, if there was a rule that said "YOU HAVE TO MPK ALL PEOPLE WEARING RED HATS" just for no reason whatsoever, I'd say people who broke that rule were the moral ones...

[Faust]

Who said I didn't do something immoral by speeding?

You're right, simply breaking a rule doesn't make you immoral. You have to look at the the reason for the rule in the first place.

LOOKING AT THE GAME, the rule was placed there to preserve a level playing field. To prevent people from gaining an unfair advantage, whether it be gil buying or using bots.

What's moral about breaking a rule that's meant to keep things even for everyone that's playing a game?

And how is having a completely random rule, that you admitted serves no purpose whatsoever, proving your point? If, in your example, I were to put on a red hat, I'd expect to be MPK'd at that point as it's in the rules.

/em clears mh of any red hued head gear.

edit-because I didn't want to make another post and just figured to add to this.

As far as the lazy comment. The reason why I say that is because virtually every reason anyone's presented so far, in order to defend cheating in the game, had to do with not having enough time, they hate to farm, they get bored, etc. All pretty lazy reasons to me.

[emitsu97]

I believe one's morality is defined by the social acceptance of certain behavior, not the written rule. Breaking the speed limit is a common practice the world over and is legally wrong but has nothing to do with one's morality. Some police don't even stop speeders because in the grand scheme, unless it's blatantly reckless (which would be morally wrong), 5-10 miles over isn't that big of a deal. About the requested "evil' references, it wasn't so much stated as much as implied. There's a "Holier than thou" feel to many of the responses. And cheater and lazy aren't necessarily positive words either. Are speeders called criminals?

[LawDawg]

exactly, I believe my point in this whole discussion is trying to explain while gil-buying (in certain situations) SHOULD BE social accepted, i.e. morally accetable.