Announcement

**Legal Fish** · 06-23-2006, 11:41 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

It is friendly and family oriented but does not allow chat during events? I'd like to remind you how boring stuff can be that doesn't require 100% attention... things like farming water or travelling to another place in sky.

Your rules are pointlessly complex and strict(once again, not so friendly and family oriented), the fact you number people's days right off the bat or not letting them cuss or not even use windower is like turning some fun(yay FFXI!) into something without freedom (boo FFXI if Hitler took SE's place!).

You seem to believe that making a list of well-worded paragraphs into complex rules and all that will make your LS good, which is false, as rules are only read once or twice. What your LS will need is a leader with charisma and people to feel like they are not working at a job(which FFXI is, if you take away the fun chat part of it, which you are doing).

Nothing good can come of being overzealous about windower or not chatting over the LS. Why join your LS when they can join an older LS with more experience and actually feel like a human-being with friends. Your LS isn't going to kill kings, wyrms, or ect in its first 6+ months, so why even bother putting numbers on it, it just looks like you rather fantasize about it than actually setting up a system that works with you'll be doing (sky and pop NMs). Putting this high-and-mighty standard on your linkshell without any basis what-so-ever is going to make it fall right on its face.

I don't mean to be offensive, but please re-read this a couple times until you understand it's meaning. I'm sorry if it is a downer.

**Bravura** · 06-24-2006, 05:21 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=124048

lol

**neocron** · 06-25-2006, 08:59 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

First of all, your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired if you interprete

During Tribunal Runs, please refrain from chatting in /linkshell. During Tribunal Runs, /linkshell chat is reserved for linkshell-wide communication as it pertains to the Run (example: designated pullers in Dynamis using /linkshell to announce a pull).

as not talking at all. All that rule is saying is during Tribunal Runs, /linkshell chat is reserved for specific purposes such as the example I cited in the rule. Your experience with endgame linkshells is significantly lacking if you honestly think it's "OK" to have non-essential conversation taking place in /linkshell chat during an event.

Now perhaps I wasn't clear in my wording, since in the /linkshell chat rule I use the term "Tribunal Run", while in the point distribution standards, I clearly define a "Raid Run" and a "Farming Run", as evidenced below:

- Points are accrued/used according to the following standards:
Two (2) points will be earned for attending each farming run. Leaving a farming run early will result in a Two (2) point penalty.

Points will be earned for attending the following Raid Runs:

Two (2) Points - General Limbus Areas
Two (2) Points - Sky Gods (Genbu, Byakko, Seiryu, Suzaku, and/or Kirin)
Two (2) Points - Kings (Behemoth, King Behemoth, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Adamantoise, and/or Aspidochelone)
Three (3) Points - CoP Wyrms (Vtra, Ouryu, Tiamat, and/or Jormugand)
Three (3) Points - Jailors aka Sea Gods (Faith, Fortitude, Temperance, Hope, Justice, Prudence, Love, and/or Absolute Virtue)
Three (3) Points - Proto-Omega / Proto-Ultima

I will change the /linkshell rule to properly reflect when general /linkshell chat is inappropriate (which is during Raid Runs).

Your rules are pointlessly complex and strict(once again, not so friendly and family oriented), the fact you number people's days right off the bat or not letting them cuss or not even use windower is like turning some fun(yay FFXI!) into something without freedom (boo FFXI if Hitler took SE's place!).

Once again, you clearly have little experience with the endgame scene in FFXI. Killing Kirin your first couple of times is a lot of fun... killing Kirin your x00'th time is not fun. The same can be said of most of the endgame. It's fun when it is new... but quickly becomes routine. The purpose of an endgame shell is to acquire items that otherwise cannot be obtained (i.e. Kirin's Osode). The purpose of an endgame shell is NOT to have fun... and I would be very interested in speaking to any experienced endgame player (i.e. someone who has been doing endgame activities for more than six months) tell me it's fun.

So why do people participate in endgame shells if the endgame isn't fun? It's all about the rewards. And that is what Tribunal focuses on. If you want to have fun, take my advice when I say don't join the endgame scene. Go join a social LS. If you want to get some nice items for your character, you do the endgame scene.

As for Tribunal's rules being pointlessly complex and strict... I don't see it but then again, that's just me. As I pointed out on the KI recruiting thread, there's endgame shells that will kick you out if you miss a single event. No questions asked. Hell, you want pointlessly complex and strict, allow me to point you to Spoondagger's Application process (located at http://www.iluvitar.com/sections/ffx...pic.php?t=2245 ):

Phase 1: Recruitment period. Post your information on the forums for consideration and attend SD events. Ask Alphavision, Sassarai, Mcdohl, or Tasenshadesen in-game for event details.
Phase 2: PM applicants with outstanding attendance the application form.
Phase 3: Review applications and forward the best applications to SpoonGeneral for peer review, and reject applicants with the worst responses. Members should privately tell any negative opinions about applicants to sackholders.
Phase 4: After reading members' opinions, sackholders meet to review applicants recommended by members and decide amongst themselves. At this point it is up to them if the applicant's available jobs are needed and whether or not LS capacity is too much of a burden.
Phase 5: Trial period. Any prolonged violations to the expectations listed in their application will be reviewed by sackholders and may warrant kicking them from the LS. Otherwise, the applicant stays and becomes a welcome new member!

Now that is needlessly complex just to get into a shell. All I got is a couple of questions and that's pretty much it.

Now let's examine 10 things that will get you kicked out of HighCouncil (located at http://s12.invisionfree.com/HCLS/ind...showtopic=1024 ):

1. applying for another HL linkshell while in HC
2. showing excessive signs of greed and/or selfishness
3. consistently do not attend LS events
4. taking casual LS chat too personally
5. theft of another player's item/property
6. botting / speedhacks (windower / ffassist is fine)
7. unwarranted MPK
8. consistently not following orders at events.
9. coming as jobs you want to come as, and not what's needed for an event
10. not actively helping fellow ls members.

Of paticular note is #9... which basically says what job you want to come as is secondary to what the LS wants you to come as. That's a little draconian in my opinion... but hey, if it works, who am I to criticize?

As for not allowing Windower during runs, my views regarding the use of Windower during events has been pretty much discussed into the ground over on the KI recruiting board. All I can say is it's against the ToS and endgame shells have been put into GM Jail to receive a temporary ban and/or having items earned from killing monsters because someone (or some people) were using third party programs. I am **NOT** going to put myself or anyone else in Tribunal at risk of being penalized because someone feels they have to use third party programs. If you want to to use Windower or other third party programs, do so on your own time. But not during stuff that Tribunal does. If this isn't acceptable, then don't join Tribunal.

You seem to believe that making a list of well-worded paragraphs into complex rules and all that will make your LS good, which is false, as rules are only read once or twice. What your LS will need is a leader with charisma and people to feel like they are not working at a job(which FFXI is, if you take away the fun chat part of it, which you are doing).

Rules are only read once or twice by ignorant children and are rarely followed. Such individuals are not welcome in Tribunal. And for the record, an LS is not defined by it's leader. An LS is defined by it's members and the accomplishments of it's members. A good leader is a leader that acknowledges this fact and fosters this attitude among the members of the LS.

It sounds to me like you enjoy the chatting aspect of FFXI... which is fine. Go join a social LS where people shoot the breeze. Nothing wrong with social LS's.

Nothing good can come of being overzealous about windower or not chatting over the LS. Why join your LS when they can join an older LS with more experience and actually feel like a human-being with friends.

Again, sounds like you want a social LS. To the best of my knowledge, being treated like a human-being is an extreme rarity in the endgame. Your nothing more than a number to most endgame LS's... either a zero or a one. If your a one, you go to anything and everything and sacrifice everything so someone else can benefit from your hard work. If your a zero, your not in an endgame LS for very long because zero's tend to show too many "individual-traits" like thinking for themselves and prioritizing things like Real Life obligations and in-game obligations higher than the LS.

I like to think Tribunal is different than all that. Yea your allowed 3 no-shows a month... but those are 3 unexcused no shows... which, if you understood the rule on this, is any no-show where you didn't take the time to notifiy an officer in the LS that you couldn't make the event.

I don't mean to be offensive, but please re-read this a couple times until you understand it's meaning. I'm sorry if it is a downer.

I don't mean to be offensive either, but clearly your not the kind of individual that Tribunal is catered to. Based on your post, I can deduce that your experience with the endgame scene is limited (if you have any experience at all) and your knowledge of LS mechanics/logistics as it applies to the endgame is practically non-existent. In short, you are probably as qualified to provide constructive feedback on this topic as I am to provide constructive feedback on how to play EverQuest 2. Your looking for a social LS and not an endgame LS... and that's assuming you even play anymore (according to your little stats blip, you don't even play the game anymore... which begs the question "why are you here?"

Oh and I'm not anything like Hitler. If I was, I'd have a rule like "only taru males with silver hair in a ponytail can apply to Tribunal" or "all members must submit an attendance sheet every day".

**Legal Fish** · 06-25-2006, 09:33 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Your understanding of the end-game is horrible. I rather not get into an arguement over the internet, so say your person insults.

A LS isn't just for rewards, a LS just for rewards is looked as scum by other LSes. I fail to see how a LS for rewards is based is a "family LS" as you put it. I run an end-game LS of my own and end-game LSes that are good usually are ran together by friends not people who are using each other for rewards. The end-game can be fun and is fun while being frustrating. I'll tell you right now, the result of a LS only looking for rewards is the LS that has a lot of drama, gil buyers(guess what, it isn't easy pointing them out), and manthras to cyber with those gil buyers.

All end-game LSes are social LSes with deticated people and events. How do you expect people to waste hours and hours for other people to have an item that'll have a minimal effect overall if they don't even care about that person.

I'd be surprised people don't use windower in your LS. I'm sure your knowledge is vast and all on this since you are so against this, but windowers are entirely client side. SE can not and will not tell if someone is using it. If SE can't neither can you.

**neocron** · 06-25-2006, 10:53 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Your understanding of the end-game is horrible. I rather not get into an arguement over the internet, so say your person insults.

I'll SAVE (not say) my PERSONAL (not person) insults for people worthy of such insults. I was not insulting you, but merely making an observation. Clearly you took that observation as an insult and that's something you gotta deal with. I don't know you so therefore I have no reason to insult you. I can (and have), however, made observations based on your post.

A LS isn't just for rewards, a LS just for rewards is looked as scum by other LSes. I fail to see how a LS for rewards is based is a "family LS" as you put it. I run an end-game LS of my own and end-game LSes that are good usually are ran together by friends not people who are using each other for rewards. The end-game can be fun and is fun while being frustrating. I'll tell you right now, the result of a LS only looking for rewards is the LS that has a lot of drama, gil buyers(guess what, it isn't easy pointing them out), and manthras to cyber with those gil buyers.

So says the forum poster with the following stats:

Legal Fish is Offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Style: V4-Light_No-Flash
Main Server: Not_Playing
Gil: 45 (Donate)
Rep Power: 0

Sorry my friend, but I'm not buying your line about running an endgame LS. Ignoring that rather small detail, I stand by my observation. How can you organize and run an LS event like Dynamis when you got most of your members talking in /linkshell about whatever? Your going to end up with a situation where vital event information (such as the puller announcing he's pulling mobs so people know who to /assist) is missed because people aren't paying attention due to general conversation in /linkshell.

Now allow me to spell it out for you. During Raid Runs (I.E. god fights, Dynamis, etc), general conversation is to be limited to /party chat and /tell. /linkshell chat is reserved for alliance leaders, pullers, and mob selectors (when applicable). During Farming Runs and off-time, /linkshell chat may be used by anyone.

Are we clear now on the /linkshell chat rule?

As for the rest of this paticular paragraph... not even worth responding to as I rely on TRUST among the members of my LS. I TRUST people won't use Windower and other third party programs while doing Tribunal stuff... just like I TRUST people won't utilize RMT to buy god pop items and/or other pop items.

All end-game LSes are social LSes with deticated people and events. How do you expect people to waste hours and hours for other people to have an item that'll have a minimal effect overall if they don't even care about that person.

So then why don't you see endgame LS's helping people do Genkei's or camp Lizzy/Emperor? And by your definition, no one would ever join ANY kind of LS in this game because who cares about everyone they share an LS with? If what you were saying was true, there would be hundreds of small LS's comprised of friends and nothing else. While I know such LS's exist, you don't see those LS's killing Kirin or Vtra. And you certainly wouldn't see such LS's killing Dynamis Lord in Dynamis-Xarcabard.

I'd be surprised people don't use windower in your LS. I'm sure your knowledge is vast and all on this since you are so against this, but windowers are entirely client side. SE can not and will not tell if someone is using it. If SE can't neither can you.

Tell that to the people that go onto Allakhazam and complain about how they were banned for using Windower. As for me not knowing.... you need to read my recruiting thread on KI. I said there there is no way for me to know people are using Windower or other third party programs unless they specifically talk about it. Unlike S-E, I don't have the ability to scan the memory of people's computers for unauthorized programs. Unlike S-E, I don't have the ability to tell when data packets have been modified or routed through to alternative destinations prior to being received by the client. All I have is TRUST that people follow the rules I have posted.

On the KI recruiting thread, I mentioned an example of someone talking about parsing their damage on Kirin. This is a pretty good indication that person used a third party program and as such, would be kicked out of Tribunal.

The rule also provides something called Plausible Deniability. If Tribunal is sent to Mordion Gaul because someone has utilized third party programs, all I have to do is point the GM to Tribunal's Rules and Policies to insure that only the person using the third party programs would be penalized for breaking the TOS... rather than the entire LS. This protects the interests of the LS as well as ensuring individual accountability for individual actions.

**WishMaster3K** · 06-25-2006, 11:15 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Since Neo > All, I will skip his latest rebuttal and focus on where you said:

A LS isn't just for rewards, a LS just for rewards is looked as scum by other LSes

So then why go to sky/sea/dynamis/hnms if you aren't getting something out of it?

Ok, just wanted to point out that fallacy. I return to the rest of the thread.

Oh, hey, Neo, it's Renarudo, lol. This is the forum I hang the most in, but GL getting some Gilgamesh activity on this one >.> We're less than moderately active. With the downfall of Alla, it's been better, but just letting you know.

Double Post Edited:
Oh and SD and HC are among the biggest botters on the planet. Them and Overzealous, I mean, Osirus.

Haha, you quoted their application process.

Neo wins the internets for tonight.

And unless someone is an occasional poster on this site, quoting their info isn't fair

**Taskmage** · 06-25-2006, 11:21 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Knowing something most don't about Legal Fish, I'll say that his statement about running an endgame ls is plausible.

**WishMaster3K** · 06-25-2006, 11:29 PM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

His methodology, or that he actually runs one?

-Still confused, and still a noob ;.;
Ren

Double Post Edited:
You and your awsome sigs, TM -_-

**neocron** · 06-26-2006, 02:33 AM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Hey Renarudo!!! How ya been?

Now that the shout-out is out of the way... ^^

Oh, hey, Neo, it's Renarudo, lol. This is the forum I hang the most in, but GL getting some Gilgamesh activity on this one >.> We're less than moderately active. With the downfall of Alla, it's been better, but just letting you know.

Yea I did kinda notice the Gilgamesh board here is a bit... slow. It's all good though. I haven't visited allah since the buy-out was announced... and have no plans on posting a recruiting thread there. Kinda figure the people here are better than the people on Allah.

Oh and SD and HC are among the biggest botters on the planet. Them and Overzealous, I mean, Osirus.

LOL! I don't know much about SD... only that I bought an Odorous Knife off of a former SD member for 500k (when it was listed in his bazaar for 900k)... so I can't really talk much about SD. As for HC.................... let's just say I know who they are and let's leave it at that. Some of my friends are in HC... but that doesn't change my opinion of the shell... or it's idiotship... err leadership (with the exception of Bardon who leads their Dynamis runs and is one of my friends). And as for Osiris, I've done some HNM runs with them in the past. I don't know about botting, but I will say they do run a tight ship.

But I have heard bad things about all these shells and is one of the things I'm trying to avoid with Tribunal. I don't want people throwing Tribunal's name around and everyone thinking "damn botters!" or "damn haxxors!" or whatever. The general idea is to have an endgame LS that breaks the mold when it comes to reputation. A lofty goal perhaps... but a goal nontheless.

Knowing something most don't about Legal Fish, I'll say that his statement about running an endgame ls is plausible.

Yes, what Legal Fish says is plausible... but highly unlikely. Anyone with any degree of endgame knowledge would recognize my rule about /linkshell chat during runs as a standard rule in Dynamis shells. All I've done is take the rule and apply it to a more broad spectrum. Actually most of Tribunal's rules are applied to a more broad spectrum for a reason. I plan on Tribunal (eventually) doing multiple things like HNM's, CoP Wyrms, and Sea. That said, I don't want seperate rules for each event type. Legal Fish talks about Tribunal's rules being overly complicated... but imagine how complicated the rules would be if I had rules for each type of event. People would end up scratching their heads in confusion and would ultimately end up forgetting rules because their would be so many. By having a few rules that are broadly applied, it saves confusion and saves people from reading a set of rules that is as long as a small book.

His methodology, or that he actually runs one?

-Still confused, and still a noob ;.;
Ren

I think his methodology is what is plausible. How a person can run an endgame LS when they don't even play the game is highly interesting. But yea, the methodology is plausible... but the chances of such an LS getting anywhere would be a problem. Finding 18 people who are friends with everyone is very difficult in this game... let alone finding 18 people who are capable of not thinking of themselves when it comes to endgame drops. What Legal Fish describes is an attribute of a Utopian society... which FFXI's endgame scene is most definitely not.

But that aside, I have heard of isolated instances where an endgame shell formed by friends (RL and in-game) have done endgame stuff. Such shells don't use points and are generally very laid back. Of course, such a thing works because everyone knows everyone else in the shell. Such shells tend to be very xenophobic when it comes to inviting new people out of fear of getting a bad apple. And it should be said that such shells rarely reach the size necessary to do much outside of the four regular gods and occasionally a land god.

They do, however, seem to be much more active in regards to Limbus, since such shells have a higher percentage of members with access to Sea (usually due to the people staticing with each other through CoP).

**Sigmara** · 06-26-2006, 05:22 AM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Originally posted by neocron

- Tribunal has a one Sky-LS only policy. Please note that at this time, Tribunal only does Sky runs. If and when Tribunal branches out into other areas (Sea, HNM's, Dynamis, etc), this rule will become a blanket policy. Social LS's are exempt from this rule.

Gilgamesh beeing an old server, some social LS have many lvl 75, witch are not against killing some gods. So if I read right social LS killing gods is OK ? ( And yes I already saw that happenning )

I would like to give you some advice : dont plan too much at start. Giving an idea of the numbers of point beeing given if you ever do that kind of stuff is nice but putting the amount of them in stone is not that good imo.

**neocron** · 06-26-2006, 05:43 AM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Gilgamesh beeing an old server, some social LS have many lvl 75, witch are not against killing some gods. So if I read right social LS killing gods is OK ? ( And yes I already saw that happenning )

To answer your question Sigmara (hello! btw), such a social LS is not allowed. If the social LS in question does the same things (even if they don't do ALL of the same things) an endgame shell does, then it is an endgame shell and not a social shell. A social shell is defined as a shell where you socialize with other people and get together to do quests and expansion-related content (like missions, Assault, ENM's, etc).

The reason for this is rather simple. If your in Linkshell A which kills Gods and your killing gods with Linkshell B, which Linkshell do you think you should be killing Gods with?

**Legal Fish** · 06-26-2006, 10:28 AM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

I do run an end-game LS, a casual one because I do have as much time as I used to play the game. I've seen and been king killing LSes however. And if it was about the friendship that developed while getting those rewards. Did you know on Midgardsormr server, there was a LS that lost an E-body drop because someone broke the alliance after losing their lot to a BST? A LS just for rewards, without the friendship between members, that is a possible result. The fact you are alienating most of the community because of your ignorant knowledge on third-party programs. Hate to break it to you, those people on Allakhazam were either lying or the GM was abusing his power for enjoyment, because it is a IMPOSSIBLE for SE to see what is going on in your computer.

PS. Did you know there is something known as being anonymous?

**WishMaster3K** · 06-26-2006, 11:04 AM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Don't be so defensive about Windower. Please, good gravy, it's not a big deadl

What do you lose by turning windower off during an event?

The ability to multi-task? Why are you multi-tasking during an event that gets your undivided attention?

Knowing TP Instantly? Why do you need that, when, chances are, there is a set SC, and you and your partner should be actively communicating anyway?

Knowing the HP Percentage of the mob? It's easy to judge that, and this is pretty pointless.

Ranged Accuracy distance? If the player is an above average RNG, this isn't necessary.

Counting Shadows? If the player got past 40 on NIN and can't count their own shadows, they need to quit the job.

The POINT is, there is no need for Windower, and like it or not, thet bottom line is that malicious or not, whether it only affects you, or affects others, whether it ruins the game for other people or not, it is a third-party program.

GMs will see it as such, and no matter how nice you speak to them, they are bound by the ToS. Windower modifies the code so that it can be altered. A game designed to run full-screen should not be editable, quite simply. This is the same reason SE does not support FFXI on Windows Vista, because Vista's innate ability to Window every program running did not sit well with them.

No need for Windower during events.

If you really want to use it, then don't mention it. Either put up, or shut up, quite literally. It's not a big deal, just follow rules -_-

**Legal Fish** · 06-26-2006, 11:54 AM

Re: Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Don't be so defensive about your friend. Please, good gravy, it doesn't involve you!

Announcement

Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

Tribunal Linkshell is Recruiting

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