Awesome testing done on enmity

[Karinya]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

It's long been believed from anecdotal experience that the enmity of cures varies according to the enmity already possessed by the person being cured, as well as the amount cured. This may not apply to Cure V's permanent enmity, but only to the temporary enmity of cures in general (which is probably more difficult to test).

The fact that Dispel has large permanent enmity while Provoke has very little suggests that for long fights, a PLD/RDM might hold hate better than a PLD/WAR. Dispel and Sleep are both fairly cheap and give substantial permanent hate whether they do anything or not. (But volatile hate and the hate shed by being hit might have a bigger impact, depending on the fight. If volatile hate is lost first to hits, then Provoke's hate may not be all that volatile in reality, since it would protect your permanent enmity the same way Stoneskin protects your permanent HP.)

[Taskmage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Also what all this brings to question is, what differences do Enmity+/- gear/merits make to these values?

The current running theory on this is that +X enmity gear increases the enmity you gain by X% rounded down. So if you have +10 enmity in gear and cast Flash, your CE goes up by 198 instead of 180.

Edit:

Part IV of the testing is up here: http://kanican.livejournal.com/14209.html

The Cliff's notes version:

The natural Volatile Enmity Decay Rate is -60 VE per second for all actions with Volatile Enmity.

Final CE = [Base CE] x { 1 + [Enmity Enhancement] / 100 }

Edit #2: The OP has been edited to be an index of enmity testing posts, along with a listing of the conclusions reached in each round of testing.

[Armando]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Very interesting. All that's left now is confirm the effect of -/+ Enmity on Volatile Enmity, and confirm that when enmity is lost, it's Cumulative Enmity that gets diminished regardless of the presence of Volatile Enmity, and then there'd be nothing left but to figure out the damage/HP recovered -> enmity conversion.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Edit #2: The OP has been edited to be an index of enmity testing posts, along with a listing of the conclusions reached in each round of testing.

And yet, you didn't manage to lose any of your "Thanks." You use your sneaky Administrataru powers for that?

(Of course, it's still awesome, and I doubt the Edit would have changed that awesomeness, but, just knowing Administrators have that power to Edit their post without losing their Thanks . . . I did not know that.)

[Taskmage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

You normally lose your thanks when you edit a post?

I dunno, it might be a mod/admin thing. Wouldn't be the first time I was surprised by a perk I didn't know wasn't a normal feature.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

You normally lose your thanks when you edit a post?

I dunno, it might be a mod/admin thing. Wouldn't be the first time I was surprised by a perk I didn't know wasn't a normal feature.

I can prove it here and now. Thank this post, I'll edit it, and, like magic, your Thanks will have been removed without your consent.

Of course, if it doesn't work, or I decide to be obnoxious ( ), you could always remove it yourself later.

I first really noticed it here, when Feba thanked my post, and I realized I made a minor mispelling, and after my Edit, his Thanks was gone.

There was no way he removed it himself, because as you can see, he went back and thanked it again, most likely thinking "wtf? didn't I thank this earlier? . . . *click*"

EDIT: Adios, Thanks from Lago and Wishmaster!

EDIT, Reloaded: apparently, Refreshing a page makes the Thanks visible again; turns out, it never gets removed. I feel like such an idiot. /facepalm

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

I can prove it here and now. Thank this post, I'll edit it, and, like magic, your Thanks will have been removed without your consent.

Nope. Once you reload the page, you'd see all the "thanks" again. (I edit some of my posts a lot, so I'd notice if it's otherwise.)

[Taskmage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

My thanks are still there and I didn't re-thank. When you do a quick inline edit your thanks won't show up immediately after you finish but like Ita said they're there when you come back.

On the other post you linked it's possible there was just a server hiccup. We do on rare occasions lose some data.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Ah, that explains it, then.

Well, thank you for your time and explanation. Feel free to remove your Thanks, as I'm done experiementing with that post, now that I know what went on.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

There is really a lot more to be done to make all this CE and VE information useful. Actions such as dealing damage, taking damage, and healing characters have multipliers applied. Here is how I believe it all works:

CE gained from dealing damage: Enemy Level Multiplier x Damage = CE
CE lost from taking damage: Enemy Level Multiplier x Damage = CE
CE gained from healing characters: Character Level Multiplier x HP healed = CE

The best way to test this is with the forced spawn NMs in Crawler's Nest. I unfortunately don't have access to the necessary characters. I imagine it would take a RDM/NIN and a DD/NIN to figure this all out.

[Taskmage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

I'm on Lakshmi with rdm/nin. If you catch me online I'll help with testing.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

/cheer ^^
Taskmage, would you be available Friday evening (11/16) or Saturday morning (11/17)?

We would want to use the fixed level forced spawn crawler NMs in Crawler's Nest.

Damage Dealt Testing:
1. Ryoii pulls with SAM/NIN (cannot tank due to enmity loss from Poison Breath damage) - ~200CE
2. Both Nonomii and Taskmage cast Sleep to build base CE greater than Ryoii - 320CE
3. Taskmage uses a Ceremonial Dagger to do a small amount of damage - 1 Hit
4. Nonomii casts 0 HP cures to pull hate from Taskmage - Damage Dealt / #Cures = Multiplier

Damage Taken Testing:
1. Ryoii pulls with SAM/NIN (cannot tank due to enmity loss from Poison Breath damage) - ~200CE
2. Both Nonomii and Taskmage cast Sleep to build base CE greater than Ryoii - 320CE
3. Nonomii casts Dispel to build a larger base CE than Taskmage - 640CE
4. Nonomii takes damage until Taskmage gains hate
5. Nonomii then casts 0 HP cures until hate is pulled back from Taskmage - Damage Taken / (320+#Cures) = Multiplier

If we are lucky, we will only need to do this against the Lv45, 50, and 55 Crawlers. We might be able to avoid the slight complication of shadows entirely if our evasion is high enough and Stoneskin lasts several hits. We could use Phalanx too if we are able to determine that it only gives 1 CE. Also if Stoneskin is sufficient, we could sub BLM for Sleepga, which only gives 180 CE against a single target.

Another group of people will be doing the Cure testing, so we will be able to compare the formulas from Damage Taken, Damage Dealt, and HP Healed.

[Taskmage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

I can work with those times. I have a terrible memory for this kind of thing, so it'd probably be best to PM me on Friday to remind me.

It's about time this ceremonial dagger came in handy. ^^

[Armando]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Ryoii, rather than doing damage 'til hate changes, wouldn't it make more sense to have Taskmage do a certain amount of damage with Stoneskin up and have you increment your CE slowly 'til you take hate from him? That'd give you an accurate number. Even with a Ceremonial Dagger, Taskmage will still be hitting for 12-19 damage, and there'd be some enmity "spillover" (e.g. making more hate than needed on the last hit.)

Likewise, for damage taken, you could simply generate a certain amount of CE, take a certain amount of damage, then have Taskmage increase his CE slowly until he takes hate back. Mobs will still be hitting you for 10+ without Phalanx, so there would also be some enmity spillover when hate shifts.

A Lv.55 mob should have a hard time touching a Lv.75 player, and when it finally does, it won't be for much. I think Stoneskin on its own would hold. But if you find that Phalanx only has 1 CE, all the better.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Ryoii will start with about 200 CE from pulling. I've yet to get the exact number that pulling adds. From your suggestion, I believe it best that both Nonomii and Taskmage cast Sleep to get to 320 CE. Then Taskmage only has to hit once before Nonomii can start casting Cures for 0 HP to catch up. I didn't really think about it this way. Thank you for the suggestion.

With Taskmage using RDM/NIN, we will be able to fight some higher enemies such as Steelshells in Boyahda Tree if time allows. We could also first use shadow loss as an estimate before doing the more exact test since 1 shadow = -25CE.