Awesome testing done on enmity

[Kirsteena]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Actually most of the time the pld can't hold hate from the drks 2 houring. I don't actually wear that much -emnity gear when I am chainspelling - generally Mahatma Slops and Tamas Ring only (maybe even just Tamas ring at -3 depending on how I am feeling). Invincible will put them at the top of the list yes, but with CS stun landing upwards of 20 times there is only so much they can do to keep DL from looking away from me.

Cover is generally enough to get me through Suzaku - remember the last time was cause noone was ready and the tanks were dead! It's a non-zerg situation.

I guess I'm just thinking about just how much emnity the drks will cause - you may hit the hate cap, but to be able to hold it ahead of drks zerging is something I'm not convinced about at the moment - though willing to be proved wrong!

[Armando]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

(/nin wouldn't really help because, although you might stay alive by using it, you'd shed the hate you 2houred to build)

Huh...? There's no way you're going to lose that much hate from shadows.

Regularly renewed spike hate can be just as important as "permanent" hate over the long term when hate is being lost to hits faster than it can be lost over time.

Dispel is on a 10 second timer, with some Haste and Fast Cast you could use it every 6 seconds fairly easily. That'll most likely still outweigh the hate lost from Utsusemi.

While this information *is* useful, don't try to apply it beyond its actual applicability. The test scenario contains several simplifications not present in the typical real fight.

I'm aware. Even so, and in spite of all the implications (massive MP consumption, would require very timely cure bombing from outside healers to Convert while tanking) there's nothing in the test to suggest it's not a possibility. It could prove useful in some situation. Doesn't necessarily have to be an HNM or something of the sort. Could be a mission fight or a BC/KS/ISNM fight.

EDIT: Making it all the way to the hate cap during Chainspell isn't necessarily mandatory, either, depending on what the other party members are going to be doing.

[hongman]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Actually most of the time the pld can't hold hate from the drks 2 houring. I don't actually wear that much -emnity gear when I am chainspelling - generally Mahatma Slops and Tamas Ring only (maybe even just Tamas ring at -3 depending on how I am feeling). Invincible will put them at the top of the list yes, but with CS stun landing upwards of 20 times there is only so much they can do to keep DL from looking away from me.

Cover is generally enough to get me through Suzaku - remember the last time was cause noone was ready and the tanks were dead! It's a non-zerg situation.

I guess I'm just thinking about just how much emnity the drks will cause - you may hit the hate cap, but to be able to hold it ahead of drks zerging is something I'm not convinced about at the moment - though willing to be proved wrong!

The way I read and understoond that blog is more +emn allows you to hit a HIGHER hate cap that someone with 0 +/- emn gear/merits.

If that is the case, if the PLD's (in theory) had just 1 emn more than the zerging DD's they should never peel hate - that is assuming that Invincible really does cap your hate and doesnt let it decay for the duration of it.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Drks always die first though, in my experience from zerg fights. Zerged Omega a lot to get it over with, KV, DL + a few random others.

[hongman]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

What's that got to do with Drk's peeling hate from Pld or Rdm's?

[Kirsteena]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

My very strange, cold enduced thought processes - don't mind me.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

It really does not seem very hard to hit the hate cap of 10,000 HU. However, this might be a soft-cap for non-decaying hate, which can be temporarily broken by spells or abilities. More testing is definately needed. Testing of Enmity gear might have to wait. Below are the next steps suggested by Kanican, I agree with these being the most helpful to focus on right now. If we determine that decay occurs at a constant rate, then the iHU of all spells and abilities can be roughly determined by the time they take to decay if they give only 1fHU.

Kanican wrote:

There are 2 keys I believe need to be proven about decaying type of hate...

1) Is all decaying hate pooled? (you mentioned this may be hte case in the comment) It would be convinient if this were true. It would be very annoying to have to know the decay rate on every single spell.

2) Is the decay in this "pool", if it exists, the same regardless of the actions used to create enmity in the pool? You seem to have reached the conclusion of 60 per second. What about trying the same test using blind instead of provoke? Blind generates at least 600 decay hate I know so you can easily build on that. You can test of the 60 decay/sec value works with this.

Kanican also wrote:

I'm glad others are interested in this. We've actually gotten a ton of number in the last few days that we're nearly ready to post. Right now, we have 5-6 spells down, Utsu shadow loss hate loss, the actual hate cap (it's 10,000, very nice number), and some other findings. I may move this information to a formal forum later on once enough information is verified - this way more can get into the testing procedure.

------------------------------------------
New FFXI Enmity Terminology

Written by Kanican:

As for terminology, from next post and on, I will probably refer to the non-decaying type of hate as "Cumulative Enmity (CE)" and the decaying type of hate as "Volatile Enmity (VE)" in an effort to be consistant with JP Wiki.

I was refering to VE as iHU and CE as fHU, but I'm going to change over to using Kanican's terminology instead. It really seems to describe the enmity from spells and abilities much better along with very recognizable acronyms.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Latest Enmity Information
All enmity appears to go into one enmity pool per character. The maximum amount of Cumulative Enmity which can be obtained is 10,000 Enmity Units (EU). Volatile Enmity decays at a rate of 60 EU per second.

Terms
Volatile Enmity (VE) - enmity which can decay with time
Cumulative Enmity (CE) - enmity which can only decay from taking damage or loosing shadows
Enmity Unit (EU) - a unit of measure for enmity; the quantity of enmity generated by casting Cure I for 0 HP

Skill/Spell Name - Units of Volatile Enmity (VE), Units of Cumulative Enmity (CE)
Provoke - 1800, 1
Boost - 300, 1
Dispel - ???, 320
RDM Barspells - 300, 1
Blind - 640, 1

Comments
I was able to determine the exact values shown above using Dispel and spells with 1 CE. I would track the number of enmity units on all characters using a spreadsheet. At the beginning of every test, both characters would cast 1 CE spells until they had equal EU. This is how I accounted for possible problems created by zoning.

Example
Here is an example of getting extremely high enmity in only 30 seconds as a Lv20 RDM/WAR at a cost of only 68 MP.

Time (Seconds), Skill/Spell, Enmity
0, Provoke, 1800
1, N/A, 1740
2, N/A, 1680
3, Blind, 1620+640=2260
4, N/A, 2200
5, N/A, 2140
6, Barstone, 2080+300=2380
7, N/A, 2320
8, N/A, 2260
9, Baraero, 2200+300=2500
10, N/A, 2440
11, N/A, 2380
12, N/A, 2320
13, Blind, 2280+640=2920
14, N/A, 2860
15, N/A, 2800
16, Barstone, 2740+300=3040
17, N/A, 2980
18, N/A, 2920
19, Baraero, 2860+300=3160
20, N/A, 3100
21, N/A, 3040
22, N/A, 2980
23, Blind, 2920+640=3560
24, N/A, 3500
25, N/A, 3440
26, Barstone, 3380+300=3680
27, N/A, 3620
28, N/A, 3560
29, Baraero, 3500+300=3800
30, Provoke, 3740+1800=5540

[Taskmage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Part 3 of the testing is now up: http://kanican.livejournal.com/13599.html

Highlights:

The Cumulative Enmity Cap is exactly 10,000 E.

Volatile Enmity can still be gained even once Cumulative Enmity has been capped.

Hate is decided by the sum of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity (Total Enmity).

and

[Akashimo]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Some how i doubt that is accuarate on the hate numbers for Cure V, given that Cure IV easily give more enmity than V ever/rarely does.

[Taskmage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

Remember those numbers only represent the component of the spell's enmity that doesn't go away. I almost never get hate with Dispel or Aspir, whereas Flash and Stun are known to be good hate-grabbing spells. It's likely that the volatile component of Flash and Stun is much higher than the cumulative component, and that Cure IV's volatile component is much higher than that of Cure V.

[Icemage]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

If Cure V gives 400 CE, I'd hate to see what the figures are for a fully landed Cure III or IV. From long personal experience, Cure V garners much less enmity over time than Cure IV. It's not that big an issue since you can't spam Cure V much - the MP cost is a very hefty 135MP.

I bet the figures for Curaga and Curaga II are way up there too.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

All I know is that Kaeko is God of Hatred, and I have heck of a rewrite to do on FFXIclopedia's Enmity entry...

I'll think I'll goof off and go play FFXI instead. >_> <_<;

[LilithAngel]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

This is shaping up to be some really great info. It's just a matter of time before other things such as Jump and Weapon Skill enmity are tested (but such tests take much more time to do and will prolly require much stricter controls, due to the nature of the actions performed).

Good stuff.

[Feenicks]

Re: Awesome testing done on enmity

If Cure V gives 400 CE, I'd hate to see what the figures are for a fully landed Cure III or IV. From long personal experience, Cure V garners much less enmity over time than Cure IV. It's not that big an issue since you can't spam Cure V much - the MP cost is a very hefty 135MP.
I bet the figures for Curaga and Curaga II are way up there too.
Icemage

It's my opinion that all the cure(aga) spells except Cure V have the same CE and that it's the VE that varies according to HP healed.

Also what all this brings to question is, what differences do Enmity+/- gear/merits make to these values?