Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

[Herrisa]

I was going to put this under OnionSoldier's Choco Raising database post, but didn't want to dirty the facts up with pure speculation, so I broke it off into its own little post. And, yes, I'm pretty sure most of this theory has been talked about in posts scattered around the internet.

When SE put chocobo breeding into the game they gave us a puzzle to work out. Being the obsessive compulsive person I am about puzzles, I've been sitting here trying to put the jig-saw pieces together. Yes, admittable, many of the pieces don't have a picture on them yet and a few may have forced into position, but this is what I'm speculating on what we have to do to get a colored chocobo.

The Pieces:

Taking the information gathered from what SE has posted:

Destrier
These knightly mounts were bred in San d'Oria. They underwent training that allowed them to bear the weight of heavy armor and withstand the shock of cavalry charges. Destriers were characterized by their large, jet-black bodies and thick, powerful legs. With the decline of lance combat and improvements to ranged weaponry, destriers lost their place in battle to the faster coursers. These days, there are no remaining purebred destriers, but it is possible to see their proud bloodlines occasionally reemerge in the birth of rare, black chocobos.

Courser
The courser is a larger-than-average chocobo and is the most common breed found in the Kingdom of San d'Oria. They are characterized by their streamlined bodies, and long, graceful legs. They were originally bred for scouting duties, but their adoption into the military was accompanied by a general acceptance of the courser as an everyday mount. On extremely rare occasions, a red-colored courser will be born.

Palfrey
The mid-sized palfreys were bred to withstand the searing air and blazing heat of the desert. They are mainly raised in the Republic of Bastok and on Zepwell Island. With a relatively gentle demeanor, these chocobos are suited for those with who lack advanced riding skills. Palfreys are known to come in both blue and yellow.

Jennet
This breed of chocobo has been magically reduced in size to provide mounts for the diminutive Tarutaru. They have short legs when compared to other breeds, but like the Tarutaru themselves, jennets are capable of maintaining a rapid pace. Due to a request from the southern Mithra wishing to blend into the jungle, there are some jennets that can be found in a shade of green.

Rounsey
With its huge population of adventurers, Jeuno boasts more frequent use of chocobos than any other nation. The main type of chocobo to be found in the duchy is the mid-sized rounsey. The pride of the famous trainer Brutus and his family, the rounsey is the result of a lengthy breeding program involving wild chocobos. This program has produced a robust mount of somewhat unpredictable temperament that is suited for long, punishing treks.

Removing the background information, we get these puzzle pieces:

"Destier..." San D'Oria..." "These days, there are no remaining purebred destriers, but it is possible to see their proud bloodlines occasionally reemerge in the birth of rare, black chocobos."

"Courser..." "Kingdom of San d'Oria..." "On extremely rare occasions, a red-colored courser will be born."

"Palfrey..."Republic of Bastok..." "Palfreys are known to come in both blue and yellow."

Jennet..." "Tarutaru..." "Due to a request from the southern Mithra wishing to blend into the jungle, there are some jennets that can be found in a shade of green."

"Rounsey..." "Jeuno..." ..."result of a lengthy breeding program involving wild chocobos. This program has produced a robust mount of somewhat unpredictable temperament that is suited for long, punishing treks.

We are also given five extra jig-saw pieces with the different temperature eggs:

Chocobo Egg(Faintly Warm) - Sold from Dabih Jajalioh in Ru' Lude for 1040 gil.
Chocobo Egg(Slightly Warm) - Sold from Dabih Jajalioh in Ru' Lude for 1040 gil.
Chocobo Egg(Bit Warm) - Sold from Dabih Jajalioh in Ru' Lude for 1040 gil.
Chocobo Egg(Little Warm) - Obtained from the level 60 ISNMs. 100% Droprate.
Chocobo Egg(Somewhat Warm) - Obtained from the level 75 ISNMS. 100% Droprate.

Putting the pieces together:

How do we associate these together? One of the clues that I'm using to speculate on how to breed colored chocos is the quest from Brutus where he gives you a Bit Warm egg. Considering that Brutus is the premier breeder of the Rounsey, I believe the Bit Warm egg contains the genetic material for the Rounsey with its wild choco genetics.

Other eggs are unknown so far, but I'm speculating that each egg contains the genetic material for each type of breed. Does this mean we'll see a Galka riding a Jennet or a Tarutaru on a Destier? No. I honestly don't believe SE spent the time or money to produce new animations for such a feat. Instead your race will determine what breed your choco is, but the choco will carry the genetic traits of its egg. So, while a tarutaru will never get to ride a Courser, an Elvaan can obtain an egg from a Jennet with the right genetic material and hatch out a red Courser from it.

Breeding for Color:

In real life, animal breeders take traits from both parents and try to breed them into the children for the desired results. What they are trying to do is make the recessive trait (the color red in our case) become the dominant trait and have the children "breed true". In other words, have the red chocobos always breed red chicks.

Since SE specifically described types of breeds and towns together, my speculation is that the best route to getting a colored chick is to raise the correct egg in the correct stable and, once breedable, to breed it with another choco that is from the correct egg and raised in the same stable.

In other words, if we want a red Courser we will first have to be elvaan, purchase the correct egg that contains the Courser genetic material, raise it in San D'Oria, and then find a person who also has a chocobo hatched from the correct egg and raised in the San D'Oria stable. We then breed them to increase the chances of a red chick. Offspring from the breeding pair will then be breed to others of the same genetic heritage until there is a pair of chocobos that will "breed true".

Does this mean a taru can raise the right egg in San D'Oria and get a red Jennet? Again no. While a Jennet may have all the genetic matieral to be red, it's still a Jennet. If an elvaan, however, raised the same egg in San D'Oria (with their default to the Courser) they have a chance of obtaining a red choco.

Cross-Breeding Color

One of the things that struck me when SE was describing the different breeds is that they never mentioned color on the Rounsey. To me this means that the Rounsey doesn't have a specific dominant color and can be easily bred to carry the color of its parent.

I'm unsure of the ramifications of this to chocobo breeding, but it could be used as a way to carry color from one breed type to another. It could also be used as a platform to breed rare chocos like destiers with its "wild" heritage.

The Black Chocobo
When SE wrote about the Destier they mentioned that there are no pure-breeds left but black colored chicks appear occasionaly. To me that means that all chicks have a slight chance of being black, similar to how albinos are in real life. That said, I believe that one of the eggs contains genetic matieral for a black destier that will help increase those chances.




I just want to add, again, that this is all speculation. We won't really know for months yet just exactly what breeding will do. As far as we know, its all random percentages and luck. Feel free to rip this apart if you feel it's wrong.

[Feba]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

Does this mean we'll see a Galka riding a Jennet or a Tarutaru on a Destier? No. I honestly don't believe SE spent the time or money to produce new animations for such a feat.

hate to burst your bubble, there's only one (riding) choco bodel in the game (well, four or five now with colored ones)


Most likely, SE will just resize chocobos with their colors, like they do already. In fact, an old Tribune article mentioned that tarus and mithras are already riding Jennets, thus it's likely to assume that stables keep a good stock of all races of chocobo on hand, for all the different races. This also throws off the theory of the Bit Warm being a Rounsey

However, this would also suggest that chocobos at stables are 'cheap', and that only those of pure bloodlines will be pure, so you'll have to breed within their own race, most likely.


Also, keep in mind it's highly unlikely for SE to limit people to certain chocobos based off their race, considering both the above and also that practically NOTHING in FFXI is unfair amongst races, except basic stats. Not to mention the fact that even with raising a chocobo, you don't have to be able to ride it, possibly.

[Raitox]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

then how would a blue choco be born then? Basically, if I follow what you wrote, I can only have a yellow or black choco.

[Stromgarde]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

If you have a rudamentary knowledge of genetics, it's pretty simple how this would work. Currently, no chocobos will be hatched out of the egg with black feathers. However, some will have the recessive gene for black feathers. Meaning, there is a 1/4 chance the recessive gene will not occur in the next generation, 1/2 chance of the genes being recessive again, and a 1/4 chance of having a black feathered chocobo.

BY+BY= the following possibilities

YY (25%) = Yellow
BY (50%) x2 = Yellow with a recessive gene (what you would get from hatching)
BB (25%) = Black

It should be the same for all colors, really.

[Dragonly]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

I like most of those theroies, except the one stating that other races can only ride certin ones, S-E wouldn't do that or they'll have alot of angry people who want a certin colour.

[Kafeen]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

A kid in Upper Jeuno stable tells something about it, it sounds similar to FFVII's system where 2 chocobos of specific types produce another specific type.

[Hantz]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

I think that there is a type of puzzle aspect to this whole issue, but I think there is some information that is possibly more important than it seems. I'll let fly with all of my BS ideas, so bear with me here. OK, let's hug it out.

AFAIK, nobody has hatched anything but a yellow chick at this point. This leads me to believe that colored chocos come almost exclusively from breeding. I think there may be the possibility to get a special color directly from a starting egg, I think we'll probably have to boil the choco-genes down for a reliable source of colored chocobos.

That being said, I think there are a few factors that can influence a chocobo's potential to produce young of a certain color. I think the first sign of this potential is the chick's temperment. There is a thread talking about temperment here. It seems that not every chick actually develops a particular temperment. For chicks that do, I think this is our first real clue as to where to focus our efforts. Chocoguys will tell you that temperment and attributes are somehow related, though they aren't really sure how. I propose that temperment is an indication as to what training the chocobo would respond the most drastically too, resulting in the development of certain attributes over others.

It has also been stated by SE that, although not immediately, chocobos' appearances would begin to reflect their attributes (meaning larger beak = stronger digging skill, etc.). We'll get to this. It's all relative, I believe.

To start separating these clues: (I've underlined the things I think might prove valuable. Let's have a look, shall we?)

Chocobo Breeds

Destrier
These knightly mounts were bred in San d'Oria. They underwent training that allowed them to bear the weight of heavy armor and withstand the shock of cavalry charges. Destriers were characterized by their large, jet-black bodies and thick, powerful legs. With the decline of lance combat and improvements to ranged weaponry, destriers lost their place in battle to the faster coursers. These days, there are no remaining purebred destriers, but it is possible to see their proud bloodlines occasionally reemerge in the birth of rare, black chocobos.

Courser
The courser is a larger-than-average chocobo and is the most common breed found in the Kingdom of San d'Oria. They are characterized by their streamlined bodies, and long, graceful legs. They were originally bred for scouting duties, but their adoption into the military was accompanied by a general acceptance of the courser as an everyday mount. On extremely rare occasions, a red-colored courser will be born.

Palfrey
The mid-sized palfreys were bred to withstand the searing air and blazing heat of the desert. They are mainly raised in the Republic of Bastok and on Zepwell Island. With a relatively gentle demeanor, these chocobos are suited for those with who lack advanced riding skills. Palfreys are known to come in both blue and yellow.

Jennet
This breed of chocobo has been magically reduced in size to provide mounts for the diminutive Tarutaru. They have short legs when compared to other breeds, but like the Tarutaru themselves, jennets are capable of maintaining a rapid pace. Due to a request from the southern Mithra wishing to blend into the jungle, there are some jennets that can be found in a shade of green.

Rounsey
With its huge population of adventurers, Jeuno boasts more frequent use of chocobos than any other nation. The main type of chocobo to be found in the duchy is the mid-sized rounsey. The pride of the famous trainer Brutus and his family, the rounsey is the result of a lengthy breeding program involving wild chocobos. This program has produced a robust mount of somewhat unpredictable temperament that is suited for long, punishing treks

I'll go ahead and include the actual attributes here:

[Chocobo Attributes]

You can see the condition of a chocobo you are raising by speaking with the VCS trainer and selecting the option “Ask about chocobo's condition.”


Physical
- Strength: Affects the chocobo’s running speed.
- Endurance: Affects chocobo riding duration.


Mental
- Discernment: Affects the chocobo’s potential to learn abilities.
- Receptivity: Affects the chocobo’s ability to communicate with fellow chocobos.


Other attributes
- Energy: The power the chocobo needs to remain active. Affects the success of care plans and the frequency of care options.
- Affection: The most important part of chocobo raising. Greatly affects the success of care plans.
- Satisfaction: Changes with feeding and affects energy recovery.

And, for the sake of comprehension, the way training affects these attributes here:



There is a lot of info there. It seems that for each breed, some of the following informations is laid out for us to decipher:
1. Country of origin
2. temperment
3. specialized purpose for being bred
4. training program focused on
5. prominent physical features
6. dominant attributes


Let's go ahead and get down in it, shall we?

For Destrier:
1. Orinially from San d'Oria, probably easiest to get a Destrier to hatch here.
2. knightly, perhaps. Of a marital nature, for sure.
3. Bred for military use, to be sturdy mounts to carry large weights.
4. Trained in carrying weight and withstanding the shock of impact.
5. Large, thick legs.
6. Not sure. Strength, yes, but "Strength" for chocos indicates "Speed" and Destriers are noted as not being as fast as Coursers, so speed isn't their inteneded goal. Training such as "Digging for treasure" seems like it would take power and resistance to impact. This would suggest that "Discernment" (the chocobo's ability to learn special abilities) is the specialty of Destriers, but it is hard to tell.

Therefore, to hatch a Destrier, I would propose raising a chocobo that had a militaristic temperment to focus on tasks that would focus on a tough, strong activity that would seem to produce a bird of a sturdy build (Carrying packages, digging, ???). Then I would breed this choco with one raised in like manner, and I would expect that the offspring would be black, or mottled with black at the very least.


For Courser :(not yet available! pure speculation!)
1. common in San d'Oria
2. undetermined demeanor (possibly noted as having a "flighty" or "Impatient" demeanor by chocoguys?)
3. Bred for scouting
4. undetermined.
5. Long, streamlined bodies and legs
6. When compared to the Destrier, Coursers are noted as being faster. I would assume it would be running speed, which (in chocobo attributes) means "Strength".

To hatch a Courser, I would breed two chocobos (of an as-yet-undetermined nature. maybe of an impatient or flighty nature) that were trained in activities to increase running speed exclusively, and/or posessed abilities relating to speed. I would focus on training the parent chocobos in delivering messages and carrying packages, to try to enhance the Courser-type tendencies they would pass on to the chick.

For Palfrey:
1. mainly in Bastok
2. relatively gentle demeanor
3. Bred to withstand adverse conditions
4. undetermined.
5. mid-size, nothing notable.
6. noted for withstanding desert heat and air. This could mean "Endurance" indicating riding duration, or something to do with "Discernment" or "Receptivity." I honestly have no idea. "Suited for those who lack advanced riding skills" may seem to indicate a focus on "Receptivity" and communication skills, making it a friendly bird that can get along well with other birds and not give the owner many problems. Not sure

To hatch a Palfrey I would suggest breeding two chocos that have gentle natures. I'm not sure of much else. Holding up under harsh weather conditions might mean that they should be trained for "Endurance" strictly, or trained for "Discernment" (for special abilities that may help the bird replenish himself???) or "Receptivity" (for a friendly bird that is easy to get along with). I personally am leaning towards "Receptivity" seeing as how Palfreys are described as being gentle and good for beginners.

For Jennets: (not available yet! don't poke my eyes out!)
1. Windurst
2. undetermined temperment
3. bred to be small (magically shrunken actually) and to blend into jungle backdrops
4. not noted
5. short legs, small body
6. maintaining a rapid pace. This makes me think that they are a mixture of Strength and Endurance, possibly just Endurance, or lord-only-knows what else.

I don't have the slightest clue as to what should be done to get a Jennet once they are available. I can't make a lot of sense of what was said about them, except that they are little and sometimes green.

For Rouncy:
I think Rouncies are any chocobo that has no specific temperment, shows no propensity for vast improvement in any one area, and are always yellow. Regular birds, simply. The Hume of the chocobo world.


So, as far as what traits are dominant in each breed, although it's not super clear at this point, I would rank them as:
1. Strength = Courser (noted as fast birds)
2. Endurance = Jennet (only noted as being able to maintain a rapid pace)
3. Discernment = Destrier (noted as being sturdy, possibly resulting in good digging skills or other types of special abilities)
4. Receptivity = Palfrey (although noted as enduring harsh weather, not noted as enduring long runs. Gentle and easy to ride)


That's what I can come up with, given what we've got. It might be crap, but it's my plan so far. The only way to figure it out will be to go out and do it for ourselves. I think these are pretty good starting points.

[Karinya]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

Another theory I've seen floating around is that there are no colored chicks because color only becomes established at a later growth stage. (Many RL birds change plumage at the equivalent of puberty.) This also raises the possibility that color might not be entirely genetic but could depend on the chick's early development.

Yet another theory of my own: chocobo genetics may not follow the rules of real life genetics, but could be Lamarckian as they were in FF7. Traits acquired during chocobo raising could be passed on to offspring. Thus, it might be that to produce a destrier chick you would have to have it be the offspring of parents raised and trained for endurance. (Likewise courser:strength, palfrey:receptivity and jennet:discernment.) Storebought, quested and ISNMed eggs don't meet these qualifications and thus, all the first generation of chocobos are yellow.

It's simply too soon to distinguish among these theories. We'll know in a month or two when there are birds old enough to breed.

[Dragonly]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

Well looking at data miners we see no coloured chicks, only the child phase that have little colour on the the of their feather near their head. I'll try to find a pic I've seen.

[Hantz]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

Well looking at data miners we see no coloured chicks, only the child phase that have little colour on the the of their feather near their head. I'll try to find a pic I've seen.

Right, the mottled looking chocoyouth. Maybe I shouldn't have said "hatch" a colored choco as much as "raise" one.

[Taskmage]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

Something I'm surprised you missed is that chocobos can be raised to have preferences for weather. I think it's more likely that the Palfrey's breeding note is related to that rather than to attributes. I'm hoping for a Palfrey or a suitable parent for one, so I'm planning to take my chick on walks through Meriphitaud whenever weather appears there. At this rate though, he may be an adolecent before I'm able to walk him that far away from town.

[Macht]

Re: Breeding for color - choco breeding speculation

Yes, I've looked at the .dats before I see no color'd chick but young chocobos do start to present color. This falls in line with many birds the chicks initial color is not it's final color, after a certain age they molt those baby feathers and grow new ones that can be different colors. A bird that really demonstrates this is a Peacock, it's not born with those long feathers with the fancy designs on it.

From every aspect shown so far SE has chocobo's raising and breeding looking to match real life. So with that getting a Black Chocobo will probably be tough because it's likely that the black choco gene is a very recesive gene.

As far as gene dominance go it looks to be:

Yellow = Most Dominant
Red, Green, Blue = Second Dominant
Black = Third Dominant

As far as we know getting from Yellow to the other three colors is probably pure luck, after getting the three colors and breeding to three colors would help make Yellow more recesive. Then improving the chance of one of the three colors or black.