Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

[Snowball]

I think this must be my 2nd or 3rd post this week.
Hope I'm not bothering anyone too much!

Okay, so when I'm ingame, I spend most of the time either in and around Windy or Sandy, (and their outlying areas) and occasionally Jeuno too, than I do around Bastok, because I don't find that there is much for me to do there. Infact the last time I was there, was when I had to use Bastok Mines to make my way to Altepa to do the smn job quest, and that was quite a while back, (oh, and also a bit more recently to go into Palborough Mines as part of the Journey Abroad Mission) which means I don't really get much of a chance to do any crafting there for Alchemy, Smithing and Goldsmithing. I haven't even started levelling any Bastok crafts yet.

Now I haven't really tried it, (and I guess I have nothing to lose if I do) but since I'm spending time in Windy at the moment, I'm just wondering......
what would happen if I started gathering materials for a Bastokian craft guild, say for e.g. it's alchemy. If I started crafting alchemy while in Windurst..... would my alchemy skills start going up, or wouldn't it really work unless I'm in Bastok to get the image support from the alchemy guild's npc?

I know that with the advanced image support, you can use it to craft items a few skill levels higher than you would do without it, (the one you have to pay 30gil for, and I'm not sure how many skill levels higher you can use it for either) and I guess that's a good advantage too, but without any image support at all, is it possible you could still craft items very close to your skill level, and still gain levels in that skill, or not?

[Futan]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

Imagery isn't necessary at all. You can probably go up to around 7 levels above your lvl without it.

[Jei]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

There's a few use of image support.

First you have to understand that skill up has its rule. Which is

a) you can start making items once you're within 15 skill range of the cap. So if an item A caps 20, you can start trying once you hit skill level 5.

b) while your skill gap is still greater than 5, you will only have chance to gain skill if you success. Meaning, failed synthesize will never give you skill.

c) Once you're within 5 skill range from the cap, failed synthesize can give you skill up.

Obviously b) is where advance support comes into play. Item A caps 20. So while your skill is lower than 15, you will want all the support you can get so you have less chance to fail.

Another reason to use support is to break into high-quality tiers.
read about it near the end of this page
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/HQ

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

I think the craft you are pursuing will make the biggest impact on whether or not you need image support while doing skill ups.

When I took cooking to 100, I rarely (if ever) used image support during skill up sessions. Cooking is littered with cheap recipes every few levels, so you don't have to reach too far above your skill level to find a good skill up recipe. With all the ingredients usually avaiable at Raimbroy's Grocery, and the many regional vendors which switch from nation-to-nation on regular basis, it's often better to do skill up sessions away from Windurst anyway.

When I took bonecrafting to 100 on my mule, image support was very important. There were many phases where I did a recipe for 7 levels or more. I did Bone Patas and Gavial Masks for 10 levels each, and I did Tigerfangs for 11 levels! I would have lost tons of gil if I hadn't milked those recipes for as long as I could.

In general, I would advise that you get your effective crafting skill (your actual skill + any modifiers, including image support and guild equipment) within 5 levels of the recipe. You still won't get skill ups from failures unless your actual skill is within 5 levels. But 5 levels above is where I found success rate to be decent (3 to 5 levels is my "sweet spot"). I would only suggest going more than 5 levels above your effective skill if the recipe is exceptionally cheap. For example, Holy Water (in Alchemy) and Insect Fletchings (in Clothcraft) are so cheap, it's probably better to eat a bunch of extra breaks on those recipes rather than losing a lot more gil on something else.

[Snowball]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

I just gained Skill Level 4 in cooking today, and my clothcraft and bonecraft is skill level 3.
So after I reach Skill level 5, does that mean I can try crafting items (take use of my Cooking for e.g.) in cooking without using image support? I would probably choose something which was about 3 or 4 levels within range at the most though.

[Futan]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

If I understood your post correctly, what they mean is not once you have a level 5 craft, but if there's a <5 level difference between your skill level and the recipe cap.

Here are some resources to find out the recipe cap:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Cooking#Recipes
http://ffxi.somepage.com/recipedb/cooking-synth-1.php
http://mysterytour.web.infoseek.co.j...ld/003cook.htm

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

To illustrate what I was trying to say...

Your current cooking skill is 4. If you were to try Boiled Crayfish (caps at lvl 9, making the gap between the recipe and your skill 9 - 4 = 5 levels), you could get skill ups whether you successfully synth it or you fail. If you were to try Orange Juice (caps at lvl 10, making the gap 10 - 4 = 6 levels), you wouldn't get any skill ups from failures. But you could increase the chances of successfully making them by getting advanced image support (which would cut the gap to 10 - (4 + 3) = 3 levels). If you were to try Sliced Cod while using advanced image support (caps at lvl 13, making the gap 13 - (4 + 3) = 6 levels), you would experience slow skill ups since your success rate won't be terribly high. You could try to jump to Sliced Cod right now using image support, but chances are, you can do Boiled Crayfish, Orange Juice, or Sliced Sardines (caps at 11) for just as cheap, and still get more skill ups.

My suggestion is to look for "sweet spot" recipes which are 3 to 5 levels above your actual skill level. This would mean a recipe that is between levels 7 and 9 without image support, or between levels 10 and 12 with image support.

And as the above poster mentioned some links, ffxi.somepage.com is your friend.

[Snowball]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

Okay, I am now half understanding what has been said.
I don't want to go into this right now, as I am desparate to get 2-3hrs of gaming done before I get some rest.

I have spotted something which I am unsure on, and if anyone could explain to me, it will be helpful.

It's this link which "Futan" posted.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Cooking#Recipes

On the right hand side, there is a list of HQ items isn't there?
I understand that HQ=High Quality, but how exactly do you synth high quality items, and are they the same level as those on the left?

So for e.g. for a "Hard Boiled Egg" capped at 4.
How do you synth a "HQ1: Soft-Boiled Egg?" (I presume they both have the same level, so that might be an obviously daft question to ask. Sorry)
Is that where the desynth comes in, using lightning crystals, or is there some other method used instead?

[bungiefan]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

You make HQ items at random, if your skill level in the craft is high enough. The higher your skill, the more likely you are to make a higher quality synthesis.

Like failures are bad luck, or just caused by low skill levels, HQ items are good luck, or caused by high skill levels.

[Kafeen]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

At the level your crafts are currently at your chance to craft HQ items is pretty slim, you can't really aim for them until you get crafts pretty high.

The link Jei posted has some theories on it :

REPORTED
0 - 10 levels above cap gives you 1-2% chance of HQ.
11 - 30 levels above cap gives you about 10% chance of HQ.
31 - 50 levels above cap gives you about 25% chance of HQ.
51 or more levels above cap gives you about 50% chance of HQ.

It is also belived by many that day of the week, moon, time and direction influence your HQ rate.

While skilling up crafts HQ results do happen just its just complete luck based on the massive number of crafts you usually need to do to skill up.

[Snowball]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

Thinking back to my original post, you guys say that you can craft something which is within 5 levels of the crap..... oh,
sorry.... I meant, cap. Hehehe (okay, just trying to be witty. Sorry if it sounds lame. )

So I'm in Windy, and my leathercraft is 2. I have chosen a recipe - Chain Mittens.
That caps at LvL 5 for leathercraft, but even though it's not a level 7 skill craft, (7 would be the highest I can craft at, being 5 skill levels away from 2. "2+5=7") I presume it would work. I would possibly get skillups from this, even though I might get breakages.

Though if I was to go to the tanners guild in Sandy to receive the advanced image support, then obviously I would be able to use it to craft items a few more skill levels higher than those at 7, though I'm still not sure how many skill levels you can go to with the advanced support. Nevermind though.

Am I undestanding this all correctly now?

[Takira]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

Yes that is basically how I understand it as well.

Good luck with your synthing.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

So I'm in Windy, and my leathercraft is 2. I have chosen a recipe - Chain Mittens.
That caps at LvL 5 for leathercraft, but even though it's not a level 7 skill craft, (7 would be the highest I can craft at, being 5 skill levels away from 2. "2+5=7") I presume it would work. I would possibly get skillups from this, even though I might get breakages.

That is correct... though you've chosen an unusual recipe. If you attempt this synth, I suspect the game will tell you that your crafting skill is not high enough. Why? Because Chain Mittens requires two different crafting skills. It requires Smithing with a recipe cap of level 31 in addition to level 5 Leathercrafting. In this case, Leathercrafting is called a "support craft", since Smithing is the highest skill needed for this recipe. If you went to the Tanner's guild and asked the NPCs for recipes, they would consequently nevery list this one.

While most of the advice has been to stick with recipes that are within 5 levels of your skill, you can technically attempt any recipe that is within 15 levels of your skill. This means that until you have Blacksmithing at level 16 (or level 13 with image support), the game will give you the message that this recipe is too high for you to attempt.

The nice thing about recipes with multiple crafts is that you can get skill ups from any and all of them at the same time. Many crafters have made use of this to get the most bang-for-their-skill-up-buck.

Recipes with multilpe crafts are also candidates for break skilling. Some players will pick a recipe that is within 5 levels of their skill for one craft, but 15 levels beyond their skill the 2nd craft skill. Because all required skills are within 15 levels, the game will allow them to attempt it. But because one of the craft skills is so far below cap, the attempt is pretty much guaranteed to fail. Since one of the crafting skills is within 5 levels, the crafter may still get skill ups from these failures with that particular craft. I have read about Woodworkers taking this approach with Iron Splitter. They skill up their Smithing to 45, to ensure that they can attempt the recipe while maximizing the probability that the attempt will fail. A successful attempt will yield a nearly useless item, resulting in basically the loss of an Adaman Ingot (the most expensive ingredient in the recipe). With a failed synth, however, the crafter at least has a chance at keeping the Adaman Ingot.

In your case though, I wouldn't suggest break skilling on Chain Mittens. Or doing regular skill ups with it once you get high enough Smithing. There's better Leathercrafting alternatives at that level. Sheep Wool will get you to level 4 (probably with profit), and Leather Bandana can get you to level 5 (with less gil lost).

[Heartily]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

I quit using support while taking cook to 100 because I usually found a recipe within 5 of my current level. If I felt adventurous, I would go slightly higher but only craft on the day of the crystal to get a better sucess rate. I'm active in all other crafts,(wood 25-cloth 20- alchemy 20-bone 14-smith 14-fish 25- gold 3)
and I've had no problems without support. The recipe selection is important and I see you have great advice from helpful players. I try to select the ones that sell at AH well and start those as early as possible and take them to the cap. The skill ups get slower when you approach the cap, but since they sell well for a profit, it's time well invested.

[Snowball]

Re: Is Image Support Really Necassarry For Crafting?

Okay, I have now chosen a different recipe instead.

I went over to Bastok hoping to buy the iron chain from the metalworks, but rather annoyingly, the NPCs who normally sell them there had NONE in stock!
So I realised that I couldn't craft that item in the end, because of that.
And the price of them at the AH was rediculously expensive that I have now been detterred from it completly!

Different FFXl sites seem to show different things, and I don't know if this is up to date or not, but I went on over to the alla site, and saw this recipe for leathercraft at LvL 5.

Sheep Leather
Crystal Used - Lightning
Item Used - Leather Bandana

I don't know if that's a multiple craft, like you tried to explain since I haven't yet worked out how you check that out. But that recipe didn't seem to be shown in the recipe list for leathercraft on other sites, it seems like the only one.

Now, I don't mind crafting sheep leather, but there is absolutely NO WAY I'm crafting items which use sheep leather in them!
For e.g. - I'm definitely NOT crafting a Leather Bandana! NO WAY HOSEE!!
Reason - you can't buy sheep leather from any NPC, and the last time I saw....
it was nearly 30k a stack at ther AHs. That's a higher price than what a leather bandana sells for too!

Now, I believe you can farm sheep leather, but right now, they drop from mobs which are a bit higher than my highest job - my WHM/30.
So that's out of the question for now!

I'm NOT interested in crafting items which sell for much less than the materials used to craft them! That's just SO RIDICULOUS!
It serves as no purpose for helping towards raise gil in the game, and much more on losing it!

So I'm going to try this sheep leather recipe I metioned from the alla site.
And if that doesn't work, then I will either try look for another recipe, or just resort to having to try and find the time when I can go back to Sandy and get the advanced support there!

I haven't even started on the carpenters guild in Sandy yet, so maybe I need to find an opportunity to go there and start on that.

Edit : Sheep wool uses sheepskin, which can only be sold in Sandy. But it's always running out, probably because of its popularity with other players, and since it's not stackable, it's going to be quite difficult buying 12 of them from the AH too. I guess I could try farming them since I have jobs high enough to do that, but again.... thats's quite difficult, what with drops being rather random! So I'm not really sure on sheep wool at the moment.
I might give it some thought though.